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Old 17.01.2011, 01:28
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I own several guns in Switzerland, and I consider it an essential right to own them. I wouldn't worry about initiatives like this one at all if it wasn't for the following three reasons:

1. Governments have been gradually chipping away at the freedom of citizens. There is a trend that everything has to be regulated and anything that is not regulated yet is a risk. What will come next? We'll restrict/ban sports cars because they encourage spirited driving? We'll issue cricket/baseball bats only to sport club members because they can be used to cave in another person's skull?
2. Initiatives like these often come as a sorry alibistic excuse from politicians who want to be seen doing something. Instead of working to fix the cause of issues, it is always easier to enact laws left right and center.
3. The most empty and alibistic reason that has become a meme by now "BUT think of the children" - whenever anyone mentions this reason, it is immediately apparent that they are running out of proper arguments.

I'm also surprised about some of the arguments for the law:

1. We need the law to implement a national register of guns - this already exists because of the Schengen regulations. So voting for this law to ensure guns are registered is plain muppetry.
2. The law will ensure that only people with a legitimate reason will own guns - again, this is already there. When requesting a permit, one has to provide a reason why they want to own firearms.
3. It is too easy to commit suicide with guns - this is a prime example of short sighted nanny state thinging whereby the state has to protect the citizens from themselves, they are not grown and responsible adults after all!

I live in Switzerland because I uphold the ideal of personal freedom and being responsible for one's own actions. It is the exact opposite of the UK where my own safety is being shoved down my throat on every step I make, and I feel like a child that has to be herded by the state, otherwise I would fall on the rail tracks, slip on snow ('cause I'm not bright enough to know that snow is slippery...). I don't want to live in a country where I cannot decide how much risk I want to live with, where I cannot take my kid to the playground if there is snow, since the council closed it down to "prevent" kids injuring themselves instead of leaving access to the parent's discretion.

Therefore I ask you, before you cast your vote, think through whether this law will really make you feel safer and whether it will have any effect at all (apart from burdening us with even more regulation). The UK has one of the most restrictive firearms laws, but do you feel safer there?

You can have these weapons also after the new law comes into effect. But you will have to get a licence. The main thing however will be that the weapons of the soldiers-in-charge will be stored in the arsenals. THIS will be the real change. The arsenals will be forced to establish an organisation they have never had before. They will have to adopt structures, opening hours and personnel.
  #242  
Old 17.01.2011, 01:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I'm a 100% pure bred swiss. More so than your Christoph Blocher. I was also friends with a girl from my school. She is dead now, shot twice in the head by a swiss who should never have had access to a rifle.
Very very sorry, but A) shit DOES happen and B) no law can prevent such things and C) exactly the kind of person you mention for one or the other reason will have such a weapon at hand !!

This is one of the arguments in favour of a professional army and against the outdated militia army.

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  #243  
Old 17.01.2011, 01:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I am quite surprised with the degree of over-emotional responses here.

Why would a woman "fear her husband's access to his military issue weapon"? Why would did she have married him then? Nearly every male in this country has his assault rifle at home, and nearly everyone's father had his Karabiner in the closet. There is no reason to be frightened. Most people fear firearms because they have no experience with them, or because they have been influenced by TV. A handgun is no more dangerous than a kitchen knife. Both are deadly when misused.

In this country, the army weapon is ubiquitous. I have lived in this country for 28 years, and I have never met a Swiss person with the horrid fears that are so evident in these posts. Granted, I am not typical - my father taught me to shoot when I was 5. Proper safety rules, proper discipline = no fears, but respect for potential dangers. I was invited by a work colleague to take in a weekend Schutzenfest and promptly won my first Kranz. I spent many years in that Verein, and I met many local people "on their own ground". At the same time I learned Swiss German, and found myself accepted and respected by a large number of like-minded marksman. These are not dangerous people - they are warm hearted, welcoming and patient, when you take the time to know them. I get the impression that a lot of people here are not terribly well integrated into Swiss culture and therefore they have this deep set fear of the armed citizen. To a certain extent I can understand this from the British contributers as they were never exposed to firearms (not even the bobbies carried them - 'stop stealing that or I'll blow my whistle again!'), and perhaps from the English-speaking non-Swiss. But I can tell you with a great deal of confidence: the problem will not be the armed Swiss citizen.

Vote no. The true dangers to society are already armed and believe me, they aren't going to drop off their weapons at the armory and pick it up on the weekend.
Now please relax. "Swiss Culture" ?? Look a bit back

- in 1848, there was NO Swiss army but the armies of the various Cantons, and the pro-Union Cantons united forces against the Secessionists (Sonder-Bündler). Geneva sent a delegation to St. Cyr to ask Henri Dufour (citizen of Geneva but General in France) to return and to lead the union to victory which he did

- in 1870, General Herzog had to create a "federal army" almost out of nothing, and "bluff" his way through. But after that 1870/71 intermezzo, that army almost disintegrated.

- in 1814, General Ulrich Wille, having been militarily educated in the Military Academy of Berlin, within a short time, built up a real federal army, established strict structures, and virtually what afterwards was and is the Swiss Federal Army

So, what you call "Swiss Culture" in reality is a fairly "recent" thing. The Swiss Army, under Defence Ministers like Gnägi, Chevallaz, Villiger went through some reorganisations.

True, the a bit overdone weaponry here may not be a reason for panic, but as a former Brigadier recently outlined, the keeping the stuff at home no longer is optimal for military security ! Into the 1960ies and 70ies, heaps of women were housewifes and so heaps of women were around in apartment blocks, which no longer is the case. All those living compounds (Wohngemeinschaften) are a nightmare for whomever is involved in military security. Long gone are the times when soldiers departing by train to their military courses deposited their weapons and other stuff (by the hundreds) right at the entrance to the Perrons and then happily went to the next restaurant.
  #244  
Old 17.01.2011, 01:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Again, by restricting firearms, you are applying a leaky patch to a much deeper issue that must be solved completely elsewhere and differently. Do you think that by removing the guns, abused women will be safe?
NO

but this is neither the topic here nor the topic of the vote
  #245  
Old 17.01.2011, 01:59
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I'm a 100% pure bred swiss. More so than your Christoph Blocher.
I am a citizen of the Canton of Zurich and so of the Swiss Confederation. But I unfortunately do NOT "own" Christoph Blocher. If I did, I would put him onto www.ricardo.ch, with a minima bet of CHF -.50
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  #246  
Old 17.01.2011, 06:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I think that there is an element of detachment that makes it easier to kill with a gun.
With knife you have more direct contact with someone, you must feel the the resistance of the skin, guts and bone, With bare hands then you are even closer to the feeling of taking a life. With a gun all that is removed. You don't need much strength, skill, energy, intelligence or bravado to shoot someone. You can stand at a distance, no physical contact, just point and one small squeeze on a trigger. Even a child can do it and some do.

I heard that a woman's chosen method of killing is poison, with men it is a gun. I once picked up a hitchhiker who had shot his estranged wife 20 minutes earlier, we had a long discussion, he had no remorse. He was buzzing and seemed to have a sense of victory, elation. We had a discussion on how he had cheated death. She had a protective order against him. Others may not agree, but I feel that any person who has to carry a gun is a coward. The bigger a man's arsenal the more I wonder what he is afraid of revealing.
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Old 17.01.2011, 06:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Therefore I ask you, before you cast your vote, think through whether this law will really make you feel safer and whether it will have any effect at all (apart from burdening us with even more regulation). The UK has one of the most restrictive firearms laws, but do you feel safer there?
Yes, I do feel safer in the UK and that includes London. I freaked each time I saw a man carrying his rifle in a bus or security around a bank. I think that men like carrying guns it gives them a sense of power.
On the subway in NY going through a seedy neighbourhood I once got a little apprehensive. I calmed myself by thinking- it's just like the tube in London, then I thought yes but some of these guys are packing guns. Oh $H1t!
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Old 17.01.2011, 07:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The bigger a man's arsenal the more I wonder what he is afraid of revealing.
Sometimes a banana is just a banana.




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  #249  
Old 17.01.2011, 13:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I own several guns in Switzerland, and I consider it an essential right to own them. I wouldn't worry about initiatives like this one at all if it wasn't for the following three reasons:

1. Governments have been gradually chipping away at the freedom of citizens. There is a trend that everything has to be regulated and anything that is not regulated yet is a risk. What will come next? We'll restrict/ban sports cars because they encourage spirited driving? We'll issue cricket/baseball bats only to sport club members because they can be used to cave in another person's skull?
2. Initiatives like these often come as a sorry alibistic excuse from politicians who want to be seen doing something. Instead of working to fix the cause of issues, it is always easier to enact laws left right and center.
3. The most empty and alibistic reason that has become a meme by now "BUT think of the children" - whenever anyone mentions this reason, it is immediately apparent that they are running out of proper arguments.

I'm also surprised about some of the arguments for the law:

1. We need the law to implement a national register of guns - this already exists because of the Schengen regulations. So voting for this law to ensure guns are registered is plain muppetry.
2. The law will ensure that only people with a legitimate reason will own guns - again, this is already there. When requesting a permit, one has to provide a reason why they want to own firearms.
3. It is too easy to commit suicide with guns - this is a prime example of short sighted nanny state thinging whereby the state has to protect the citizens from themselves, they are not grown and responsible adults after all!

I live in Switzerland because I uphold the ideal of personal freedom and being responsible for one's own actions. It is the exact opposite of the UK where my own safety is being shoved down my throat on every step I make, and I feel like a child that has to be herded by the state, otherwise I would fall on the rail tracks, slip on snow ('cause I'm not bright enough to know that snow is slippery...). I don't want to live in a country where I cannot decide how much risk I want to live with, where I cannot take my kid to the playground if there is snow, since the council closed it down to "prevent" kids injuring themselves instead of leaving access to the parent's discretion.

Therefore I ask you, before you cast your vote, think through whether this law will really make you feel safer and whether it will have any effect at all (apart from burdening us with even more regulation). The UK has one of the most restrictive firearms laws, but do you feel safer there?
I think you have to read about the initiative, it is about men/women doing military service and if they should be able to have their rifle at home or not. There were a lot of incidences where people used their weapon to kill people or commit suicide. There is absolutly no reason for keeping the weapon at home since you are not allowed to use it, only to abuse it.

LOL Personel freedom, the right the own and use guns...please...it's the same as saying that everyone should have the right to drive a car...but thankfully there is control of who is allowed to drive, control of the status of the car etc. The same should apply to guns...
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Old 17.01.2011, 13:44
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I think that men like carrying guns it gives them a sense of power.
... and women who carry guns?
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  #251  
Old 17.01.2011, 21:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

read this on a friend's site:

Ich finde, dass man diese Waffeninitiative ablehnen sollte. Ich stehe wohl kaum im Verdacht, ein Militarist zu sein (von mir aus kann die Armee abschaffen) und auf keinen Fall möchte ich so ein blödes Gewehr daheim, das ich noch putzen müsste. Aber diese ganze Hysterie um Rauchen, fette Ernährung, Pyros in Stadien, Velohelme, Google Street View, Kindersitze für fast Erwachsene, Pädophile, Raser, Burkas etc. sowie der daraus resultierende Kindermädchenstaat gehen mir mittlerweile noch mehr auf den Sack als das SVP-Geschwätz zur Wehrhaftigkeit. Vor ein paar Jahren ging es ja auch noch ohne diese Regelungen, Verbote und Gesetze mit ihren wohlmeinenden Bürokraten. Es geht hier um ein weiteres Stück Freiheit und Verantwortung, das man den Bürgern weg nehmen will.

Und noch was: Frauen, die sich fürchten, weil der Mann ein Gewehr im Keller hat, müssten sich vielleicht mal überlegen, ob sie nicht einen neuen Partner suchen sollten, denn eigentlich haben sie ja nicht Angst vor dem Gewehr, sondern vor dem Mann. Da bringt ein neues Gesetz auch nicht viel.
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Old 17.01.2011, 21:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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read this on a friend's site:

Ich finde, dass man diese Waffeninitiative ablehnen sollte. Ich stehe wohl kaum im Verdacht, ein Militarist zu sein (von mir aus kann die Armee abschaffen) und auf keinen Fall möchte ich so ein blödes Gewehr daheim, das ich noch putzen müsste. Aber diese ganze Hysterie um Rauchen, fette Ernährung, Pyros in Stadien, Velohelme, Google Street View, Kindersitze für fast Erwachsene, Pädophile, Raser, Burkas etc. sowie der daraus resultierende Kindermädchenstaat gehen mir mittlerweile noch mehr auf den Sack als das SVP-Geschwätz zur Wehrhaftigkeit. Vor ein paar Jahren ging es ja auch noch ohne diese Regelungen, Verbote und Gesetze mit ihren wohlmeinenden Bürokraten. Es geht hier um ein weiteres Stück Freiheit und Verantwortung, das man den Bürgern weg nehmen will.

Und noch was: Frauen, die sich fürchten, weil der Mann ein Gewehr im Keller hat, müssten sich vielleicht mal überlegen, ob sie nicht einen neuen Partner suchen sollten, denn eigentlich haben sie ja nicht Angst vor dem Gewehr, sondern vor dem Mann. Da bringt ein neues Gesetz auch nicht viel.
Any chance of a translation for our friends in the west and the south?
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Old 17.01.2011, 21:44
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Guns don't kill people. Crazy people kill people. End of story.
  #254  
Old 17.01.2011, 21:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Yes, I do feel safer in the UK and that includes London. I freaked each time I saw a man carrying his rifle in a bus or security around a bank. I think that men like carrying guns it gives them a sense of power.
On the subway in NY going through a seedy neighbourhood I once got a little apprehensive. I calmed myself by thinking- it's just like the tube in London, then I thought yes but some of these guys are packing guns. Oh $H1t!
Many take the weapon for the "Obligtorische" to the place on their bicycle, in their car or of course by tram. And at the start and at the end of each "service" you had the full gear with you in train and tram. Many trains were /are full with soldiers and their weapons at specific times. In the "old times" which means before about 1977, when going to the HB, you deposited the weapons on a heap at the head of the right perron and then went to the restaurant to wait for the train. I do not see anything freaky about this aspect. I think you suffer from some vivid imagination !
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Old 17.01.2011, 22:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Many take the weapon for the "Obligtorische" to the place on their bicycle, in their car or of course by tram. And at the start and at the end of each "service" you had the full gear with you in train and tram. Many trains were /are full with soldiers and their weapons at specific times. In the "old times" which means before about 1977, when going to the HB, you deposited the weapons on a heap at the head of the right perron and then went to the restaurant to wait for the train. I do not see anything freaky about this aspect. I think you suffer from some vivid imagination !
A good friend of mine loves to tell the story of how she was at the ZHB, dressed as the hippie she was, with 3 or 4 STGW 57 while her husband and his buddies went to buy their tickets.

She said it was easy to tell the Swiss from the non-Swiss by their reaction! (i.e. for once, the Swiss WEREN'T staring )

Tom
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Old 17.01.2011, 22:08
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Is now a good time to mention that the sight of a woman in possession of guns does things to me?

And to watch a woman firing one...

Oooh... I think I need a lie down.
  #257  
Old 17.01.2011, 22:11
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Any chance of a translation for our friends in the west and the south?
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I think this weapons initiative is to be rejected. I am hardly supposed to be a militarist and would not like to have such a dull gun at home. But this hysteria about smoking, fat food, bicycle helmets etc is rather more tiring than the SVP chatter about readiness for defence. It is about another piece of freedom and responsibility to be robbed from the citizens. And something else. Women who are in fear because their partner has a gun in the cellar ought to consider to get a new partner
What is wrong with this "argument" ?

A) He does not want to have such a weapon at home, but apparently was not opposed to uncountable men having been forced by law to have the stuff at home !
B) A majority of soldiers would have liked to leave the weapon in a military place. This has become an option in some places, but a complicated one due to locations and opening hours
C) women in fear about these guns have NOTHING to do with the matter
D) to have to carry that thing around is not exactly my understanding of "freedom"
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Old 17.01.2011, 22:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Is now a good time to mention that the sight of a woman in possession of guns does things to me?

And to watch a woman firing one...

Oooh... I think I need a lie down.
I don't own one, but my girlfriend used to, but she got rid of them before she met me.

We have been talking about taking up hunting. The problem with that isn't who does the killing, but rather who does the drawing and skinning!

(I must admit, when we go fishing, she's the one that clubs them )

Tom
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Old 17.01.2011, 22:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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when we go fishing, she's the one that clubs them
I know that the Swiss have clubs for everything, but that's taking things a bit far...
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Old 17.01.2011, 22:18
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Is now a good time to mention that the sight of a woman in possession of guns does things to me?

And to watch a woman firing one...

Oooh... I think I need a lie down.
There are a few units with women doing military service on their choice, and they HAVE Stgw, AND really DO shoot

And in Israel, women have to do military service in full !
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