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Old 18.01.2011, 11:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Guns don't kill people. Crazy people kill people. End of story.
True...so lets make sure that crazy people don't get easily access to guns..., see military...unless we have a system to identify these crazies, no military guns at home!
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  #282  
Old 18.01.2011, 11:11
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It's a good job, really, else what use would it be against those who would break into your house, rape your children and steal your plasma screen telly?

How much more stating-of-the-blindingly-obvious can this thread take, I wonder?
So people should smash the burgler on the head with their military rifles?

...and yes, Switzerland is full of plasma-stealing-child-raping burglers!
  #283  
Old 18.01.2011, 11:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So tell me, Hoppy. How many gun-related murders were committed last year by non-criminal owners of guns?

There are vast swathes of the American continent that are populated by quiet, law-abiding owners of guns who have never murdered anyone in their lives, and probably never will.

Just because the cities are populated by criminals who choose to use a perfectly legal weapon of self-defence to commit criminal acts of murder, why should good, honest, decent people in the countryside be forced to give up their constitutional rights?

Have a look at the list of gun-related murders by state, and tell me what you see. When I looked, I didn't see a very close correlation between God-fearing conservative countryfolk and gun crime. I did see some other interesting correlations, though.
Luckily switzerland has not insane constitution as in US! "Right to own a gun..."......Please...

...and the topic is not about US citizens right to carry firearms, but about swiss men/women shall be able to store their rifles at home...stay on topic please.
  #284  
Old 18.01.2011, 11:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And pepper spray?

After all, you never know when some man-hating harpy will go on the rampage and blind a few people just for the fun of it.

We should ban pepper spray, just to be on the safe side.

What? You mean thousands of people carry pepper spray and don't use it to hurt people? So what? It's not worth the risk!

Ban it! Ban it all!
Sorry, DB - couldn't resist that.
Being a teacher, though, I just know you'll understand.
  #285  
Old 18.01.2011, 11:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So tell me, Hoppy. How many gun-related murders were committed last year by non-criminal owners of guns?
Replace "non-criminal" with the "children of non-criminal" and the answer is too many.
  #286  
Old 18.01.2011, 12:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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...and the topic is not about US citizens right to carry firearms, but about swiss men/women shall be able to store their rifles at home...stay on topic please.
Fair enough: Regarding Switzerland, the whole initiative is a waste of time to solve a non-existent problem. Where there are problems with criminals abusing guns, then they are already dealt with by the legal system. Why, therefore, is another law necessary, which merely serves to criminalise ordinary, non-murderous people for no sensible reason at all?
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  #287  
Old 18.01.2011, 12:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why does anyone need to keep a gun under their bed?

Switzerland is a safe place right ?

Look at the statistics for gun crime in the UK against the USA for example.

Hardly any gun crime in the UK apart from the few odd incidents now and then. Everyday someone gets killed or injured in the USA because guns are available and cheap.

Not saying that Switzerland will become like that but if you want to keep guns, keep them in an armoury with the ammo separate, then you can book them out when you like to do what you like to do under safe conditions !
Courtesy of The Atlantic - a look at the geographical diffusion of gun deaths in the US:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-deaths/69354/



Paul

p.s. sorry for derailing the thread out of Switzerland...
  #288  
Old 18.01.2011, 12:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Replace "non-criminal" with the "children of non-criminal" and the answer is too many.
If somebody leaves a loaded, cocked weapon around children who have not been taught not to touch it without daddy's or mommy's permission, then s/he deserves to go to prison for it.

Meanwhile, all the perfectly sensible gun-owners who treat their guns with respect and bring up their children to treat guns with respect, can continue to go about their business without harassment from the government.

Electric drills are pretty dangerous if you leave them plugged in near children, but you never hear people clamouring to have them banned.
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  #289  
Old 18.01.2011, 12:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Luckily switzerland has not insane constitution as in US! "Right to own a gun..."......Please...
Sorry, but don't seem to be very well informed.

Actually, while it's not explicitly stated in the constitution, every Swiss citizen has the right to own a gun. These days he (or she) needs a permit (Waffenerwebsschein) to buy a gun, but usually the permit has to be granted unless the applicant doesn't have a clean criminal record or the issuing authority has reason to believe that he is endangering himself or others with the gun.

Actually Switzerland with an estimated 45.7 guns per 100 residents is an excellent example that many guns don't equal a lot of gun violence.

Until 1998 you didn't even need a permit to carry a gun in many cantons and there was very little gun violence even back then.
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Old 18.01.2011, 13:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Sorry, but don't seem to be very well informed.

Actually, while it's not explicitly stated in the constitution, every Swiss citizen has the right to own a gun. These days he (or she) needs a permit (Waffenerwebsschein) to buy a gun, but usually the permit has to be granted unless the applicant doesn't have a clean criminal record or the issuing authority has reason to believe that he is endangering himself or others with the gun.

Actually Switzerland with an estimated 45.7 guns per 100 residents is an excellent example that many guns don't equal a lot of gun violence.

Until 1998 you didn't even need a permit to carry a gun in many cantons and there was very little gun violence even back then.
License is the key here, easy to get or not...but check :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland

Still has to do a test though....

Here you can't just walse into a shop and buy a gun...

and Yes, I AM wellinformed..

The mantra that the retard Heston made does not apply here ("from my dead hands..."...LOL what a loser)...nobody cares, and nobody think it's limiting your freedom...
  #291  
Old 18.01.2011, 13:36
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So tell me, Hoppy. How many gun-related murders were committed last year by non-criminal owners of guns?

There are vast swathes of the American continent that are populated by quiet, law-abiding owners of guns who have never murdered anyone in their lives, and probably never will.

Just because the cities are populated by criminals who choose to use a perfectly legal weapon of self-defence to commit criminal acts of murder, why should good, honest, decent people in the countryside be forced to give up their constitutional rights?

Have a look at the list of gun-related murders by state, and tell me what you see. When I looked, I didn't see a very close correlation between God-fearing conservative countryfolk and gun crime. I did see some other interesting correlations, though.
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Courtesy of The Atlantic - a look at the geographical diffusion of gun deaths in the US:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...-deaths/69354/



Paul

p.s. sorry for derailing the thread out of Switzerland...
Actualy DB it looks like your theory on the incidence of gun related murder doesn't hold water. Leaving out Louisiana which I could well imagine has one or two special issues that could favour either side and ignoring DC because I can't tell what colour it is, it seems the darker orange areas are rather more concentrated in exactly those conservative country areas you mention and generally lowest in the more Democrat states.
  #292  
Old 18.01.2011, 13:40
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If somebody leaves a loaded, cocked weapon around children who have not been taught not to touch it without daddy's or mommy's permission, then s/he deserves to go to prison for it.

Meanwhile, all the perfectly sensible gun-owners who treat their guns with respect and bring up their children to treat guns with respect, can continue to go about their business without harassment from the government.

Electric drills are pretty dangerous if you leave them plugged in near children, but you never hear people clamouring to have them banned.
...so lets limit the dangerous devices in households to what is really necessary...knives, tools..YES....assualt weapons, explosives...NO...quite simple...no?

I still see no argument why men/women here should be able to keep their rifles at home, they are not allowed to use them...

There are many concrete situations where a person took their rifle and shot people and it was proven that if these persons didn't have access to his rifle these incidences would never have occured. Most incidences are done as an impulsive reaction...

If there was a way to save e.g. 20 lives / year due to not store rifles at home, would you think it would be worth it or not?
  #293  
Old 18.01.2011, 13:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Still has to do a test though....
There is no test for buying/owning a gun.

You only need to pass tests if you want to get a trading or carrying license.

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and Yes, I AM wellinformed..
Yeah, right.

For future reference, here's a link to the relevant law: Waffengesetz (in German only, sorry). You're welcome.
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  #294  
Old 18.01.2011, 13:58
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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...so lets limit the dangerous devices in households to what is really necessary...knives, tools..YES....assualt weapons, explosives...NO...quite simple...no?
I think what sets many people on edge is the government telling its citizens what is necessary or not. My wife's government determined it wasn't necessary for its citizens to listen to the Beatles, and so they couldn't, for example. - And before you go off- yes I know no one ever committed a mass murder with Beatles records. That's not the point.




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If there was a way to save e.g. 20 lives / year due to not store rifles at home, would you think it would be worth it or not?
The discomfort here comes from depending on the government to protect us from ourselves. As has been stated elsewhere in the thread, the occurrence of loonies blowing a fuse and mowing down innocents is a very modern thing. The cause isn't the guns, it's far deeper than that.

I work in the machining industry, and over the last 30 years or so there's been a major push to install guards and so forth on machines to keep fingers on hands and such. From talking to a large number of veterans of the trade, they observe that there were fewer accidents before the guards were required- the false sense of security led to a drop in common sense it seems when manipulating tons of metal with frail fleshy hands. But that's progress.
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  #295  
Old 18.01.2011, 14:04
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I still see no argument why men/women here should be able to keep their rifles at home, they are not allowed to use them...
What's the point in requiring military issue weapons to not be kept at home, when one is free to purchase an identical weapon and keep it at home?

Tom
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Old 18.01.2011, 14:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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There is no test for buying/owning a gun.

You only need to pass tests if you want to get a trading or carrying license.


Yeah, right.

For future reference, here's a link to the relevant law: Waffengesetz (in German only, sorry). You're welcome.
yes you are correct, you do not need to do a test to own or buy, only to use it...makes absolutly sense!!!
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Old 18.01.2011, 14:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The mantra that the retard Heston made does not apply here ("from my dead hands..."...LOL what a loser)...nobody cares, and nobody think it's limiting your freedom...
Sorry OSueco, I promise I'm not picking on you. But the concept of Charlton Heston as a retard comes from Michael Moore's unfortunate and entirely manipulated depiction of him in Bowling for Columbine. The "cold dead hands" statement was made in appreciation of a handmade musket given to Heston by the NRA. Moore also implied that Heston was racist. I hate seeing folks dragged through the mud based on false info.

Couple of facts-

Heston was one of the first Hollywood stars to actively protest segregation. He also accompanied Dr. King on a march on Washington.

Heston also actively supported the Gun Control Act of 1968, which is still opposed by many NRA members. This act introduced major changes in how guns could be sold, who could sell and by, lots and lots of stuff that make "gun nuts" cringe.

Not all NRA members are dumb rednecks, just as some SVP members are level headed intelligent nice blokes.
  #298  
Old 18.01.2011, 14:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I think what sets many people on edge is the government telling its citizens what is necessary or not. My wife's government determined it wasn't necessary for its citizens to listen to the Beatles, and so they couldn't, for example. - And before you go off- yes I know no one ever committed a mass murder with Beatles records. That's not the point.






The discomfort here comes from depending on the government to protect us from ourselves. As has been stated elsewhere in the thread, the occurrence of loonies blowing a fuse and mowing down innocents is a very modern thing. The cause isn't the guns, it's far deeper than that.

I work in the machining industry, and over the last 30 years or so there's been a major push to install guards and so forth on machines to keep fingers on hands and such. From talking to a large number of veterans of the trade, they observe that there were fewer accidents before the guards were required- the false sense of security led to a drop in common sense it seems when manipulating tons of metal with frail fleshy hands. But that's progress.
you people are arguing about the government telling us what to do...you're fine with not able to lawn my grass on sundays, not able to wash my car at home, etc etc...but when it comes to freedom of devices ment to particular hurt and damage people - "NO---that we cant have..OUTRAGE!!!"

The cause is not the guns...but if a person gets an impulsive trigger which (e.g. neighbour dispute) and there is a rifle 1 meter from he could pick it up...if there was a drilling machine probably not...shooting somebody is less hard then to drill somebody to death...
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  #299  
Old 18.01.2011, 14:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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...so lets limit the dangerous devices in households to what is really necessary...knives, tools..YES....assualt weapons, explosives...NO...quite simple...no?
a) It's my strong belief that people do know better than the government what's necessary in their households and what's not. So far I didn't deem it necessary to own a gun but that may change some day.
b) The proposed initiative is not just about assault weapons but about any type of gun.

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I still see no argument why men/women here should be able to keep their rifles at home, they are not allowed to use them...
Of course they are. They're free to join a shooting club (Schützenverein) of their choice and shoot there or go to some other shooting range to use their guns.
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Old 18.01.2011, 14:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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yes you are correct, you do not need to do a test to own or buy, only to use it...makes absolutly sense!!!
Just like a car, yes.
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