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Old 18.01.2011, 15:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Sorry OSueco, I promise I'm not picking on you. But the concept of Charlton Heston as a retard comes from Michael Moore's unfortunate and entirely manipulated depiction of him in Bowling for Columbine. The "cold dead hands" statement was made in appreciation of a handmade musket given to Heston by the NRA. Moore also implied that Heston was racist. I hate seeing folks dragged through the mud based on false info.

Couple of facts-

Heston was one of the first Hollywood stars to actively protest segregation. He also accompanied Dr. King on a march on Washington.

Heston also actively supported the Gun Control Act of 1968, which is still opposed by many NRA members. This act introduced major changes in how guns could be sold, who could sell and by, lots and lots of stuff that make "gun nuts" cringe.

Not all NRA members are dumb rednecks, just as some SVP members are level headed intelligent nice blokes.
Sorry to step on your feet, it's just my preconception about NRA (which is same as KKK and where Heston was the president of) members...and some documentaries (no not Moore)...and I'm against people who glorifies weapons...he is also against abortion but that is another discussion....
  #302  
Old 18.01.2011, 15:35
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Just like a car, yes.
and most drivers licenses are given to you without performing a test...
  #303  
Old 18.01.2011, 15:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Actualy DB it looks like your theory on the incidence of gun related murder doesn't hold water. Leaving out Louisiana which I could well imagine has one or two special issues that could favour either side and ignoring DC because I can't tell what colour it is, it seems the darker orange areas are rather more concentrated in exactly those conservative country areas you mention and generally lowest in the more Democrat states.
Again, it looks to me like you're talking about two different, largely unrelated statistics. Gun crime != gun-related death. Not even close. For example you might be robbed at gunpoint but without a shot being fired - and that is still a "gun crime" - or you might be shot and killed in a hunting accident, which is a "gun-related death" with nothing criminal about it.

And "gun-related murder" as referenced in your post is something else yet (a subset of the overlap between the two.)

Nothing against statistics but they don't half muddle things if one is not careful with the labels.
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Old 18.01.2011, 15:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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and most drivers licenses are given to you without performing a test...
Hmm? Of course you have to take a test.

But you don't need a driver's license to buy a car.
You don't need a driver's license to own a car.
You do need a driver's license if you want to drive a car - yours or anyone else's.

...just like gun permits. That was my point.
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  #305  
Old 18.01.2011, 15:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If somebody leaves a loaded, cocked weapon around children who have not been taught not to touch it without daddy's or mommy's permission, then s/he deserves to go to prison for it.

Meanwhile, all the perfectly sensible gun-owners who treat their guns with respect and bring up their children to treat guns with respect, can continue to go about their business without harassment from the government.
Until their teenage kids have a bad Monday morning?¨

Approx 210 children and teachers in the US killed with legally held firearms while at school or college.

Last edited by swissbob; 18.01.2011 at 15:57.
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  #306  
Old 18.01.2011, 15:53
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I don't really buy into the gun availability = murders, etc. I think comparing some countries with relatively free access to guns, and other countries with a different political, cultural and socio-economical climate and gun restrictions is pointless, too. Some cultures are healthier than others. Some need restrictions, some don't.

I grew up with guns since my regime thought it was necessary to train us early against the eager beaver evil imperialists, we shot since we were 8, It was actually great. I learned how to shoot canons, guns, machine guns, you name it, and how to be careful. Spent a summer camp at commie Russian army base, it was fascinating. I still love to shoot, even though would never ever point at any live creature. All of my peers had to shoot, throw handgranates, know first aid, how to pack an evacuation suitcase, how to get organized in case they nuked us. According to some people's theory posted here we would be then a generation of killers. But none of that happened, in fact we organized a very peaceful revolution and overthrew the regime without a single killed person.

If you leave the access free, it is no big deal. But gov and media have to think twice before they campaign and about healthy and ethical communication, etc. Bigger investment in common sense and all, toning down hostility in public, hate speech, etc.
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  #307  
Old 18.01.2011, 15:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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According to some people's theory posted here we would be then a generation of killers. But none of that happened, in fact we organized a very peaceful revolution and overthrew the regime without a single killed person.
Yet you still won't listen to the Beatles!
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Old 18.01.2011, 16:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I grew up with guns. Everyone in my family had a gun, extended family, almost all of my friends; all had guns. Friends of family and friends of friends had guns. Many, many, people all together: not one had or was close to someone who had OR was close to someone who was close to someone who had an incident of gun related injury or death.

A dear friend was however forced at knifepoint to give his attacker oral sex. Several tried suicide, by knife or drugs. One succeeded at suicide by drowning. One was brutally beaten by his mother from the time he could walk until he was 18 (yes they had guns and no he didn't snap and kill her). One was beaten viciously by her boyfriend for 6 years (plenty of guns there too, and the woman had easy access herself to many guns and was proficient in their use).

There's no question that restrictive gun legislation would at least reduce gun related injury and death. But again, the question should be why. If people are snapping then what is the reason? And criminals are criminals, and will get their guns. I am not a criminal, but I can walk out my shop now and be back in under an hour with a gram of coke- and I've never bought the stuff. If I can do that, a criminal can and will get a gun.

And if the argument is thrown out that "saving just one life warrants the legislation", then we have to examine a bit more deeply our beliefs and morals. Back in the thread it was stated that killing with a gun was easier than killing with a knife, as one is removed from the brutality of the action. In the current Steve Jobs thread it was casually mentioned that "10 out of 800,000 ain't so much" regarding suicides due to working conditions. So we are so removed from the Ipod factory that that is palatable, as long as we get a smooth white box at a fair price? So much of what the modern, sane, caring, Western World holds dear comes at a price of life, yet we would rather point fingers at responsible gun owners than demand that Megacorp Inc. stop clear cutting forest and pay it's workers a living wage- because that would cost us- that would hurt- that would be brutal.
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  #309  
Old 18.01.2011, 16:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

The biggest issue here is not death rates, which may or may not decline somewhat from their already low levels (various studies of suicide and murder following similar legislation in Canada, Australia and the UK are inconclusive here), but the relationship between citizens and the state.

This referendum is ironic, because the ability of the people to call this vote means that they are the highest law in the land, above elected representatives, yet by calling it the Pro faction is requesting that power be taken away from them. Make no mistake, even enlightened governments rest on the threat of physical force - that is government's very definition, a monopoly on force.

The idea of a civilian militia is not simply for national defense, but on occassion for domestic defense against an overreaching government. No shots need to be fired to excercise this power, as state agents naturally feel more respect for an armed populace.

The question here is whether the Swiss now want their government to view them a bit more like children.

Last edited by Mapache; 18.01.2011 at 17:00.
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Old 18.01.2011, 16:44
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I do see an analogy with drinking. Since it is allowed back home (and here too) at 16, it is not really a big deal. Yet, in the US, since the prohibition somewhat continues, be it the 21yr mark or how drinking is viewed (people don't really want to be seen in public drinking, not that they can, in some states, anyways, in the street, or it is socially accepted only at certain time, etc.), yet I have never met more undercover bozos in my entire life. It seems to be a huge deal. The college kids who came to Prague for summer uni courses went bezonkers when they had access to hard liquor, or even just beer and no parental supervision (but their credit cards). Acting like complete irresponsible nutcases. Think Daytona Beach at Spring break or Mardigras. I think that's what you get when you don't give any credit to public and overdo the restriction (even if it is just the whole biblethumping thing, or media thing, not necessarily the laws). It just simply gets something else attached to it, and people react strange to it. Then shooting stops being shooting and turns into killing, since that is what they are fed all the time. None of the gun interested folks (myself included) actually attach death to a gun, when we are holding it or cleaning it, or shooting targets. One is careful, that's common sense, but just because some crazies abused their access, does not make the whole world turn into irresponsible morons.
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  #311  
Old 18.01.2011, 18:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I very much have sympathies for the argument of individual freedoms. Although my initial reaction was to agree with the initiative, this is why I am still trying to figure out what to vote.

But arguing for the possession of weapons based on the possible need to use them against the evil government or that it is the widespread gun ownership which is keeping the government in line (in Switzerland, 2011), strikes me as, to say the least, a quiet odd reasoning (especially for a gun owner)…

The army introduced (or will introduce?) stricter “gun capableness examination” (Waffentauglichkeitsprüfung) and collected the ammunition. I’m wondering, were these just tactical moves to “take the wind off the sails” of this initiative/giving in to growing pressure on the army or were they based on an assessment of a real problem relating to army weapons?…hmm decisions, decisions.
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  #312  
Old 18.01.2011, 18:16
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Some nice references...: (no problems at all...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Leibacher

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Gun_laws...ml?cid=6279992

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Arc...ml?cid=5631990

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials...tml?cid=982416

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Arc...ml?cid=5154732

People think it's worth to sacrifice 300 people every year for the "freedom" of having army weapons at home...
  #313  
Old 18.01.2011, 18:18
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The biggest issue here is not death rates, which may or may not decline somewhat from their already low levels (various studies of suicide and murder following similar legislation in Canada, Australia and the UK are inconclusive here), but the relationship between citizens and the state.

This referendum is ironic, because the ability of the people to call this vote means that they are the highest law in the land, above elected representatives, yet by calling it the Pro faction is requesting that power be taken away from them. Make no mistake, even enlightened governments rest on the threat of physical force - that is government's very definition, a monopoly on force.

The idea of a civilian militia is not simply for national defense, but on occassion for domestic defense against an overreaching government. No shots need to be fired to excercise this power, as state agents naturally feel more respect for an armed populace.

The question here is whether the Swiss now want their government to view them a bit more like children.
if the government would have confident in their citizens then they would be allowed to have ammo at home....bite on that!!! Overreching government?...in Switzerland?...please....
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Old 18.01.2011, 18:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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if the government would have confident in their citizens then they would be allowed to have ammo at home....
Until recently, they did.

I think it was a mistake to change that, and I think it a bigger mistake if this new law passes.

Tom
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Old 18.01.2011, 18:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I'm thinking that rather than holding a referendum on the issue, some folks here might prefer an OK Corral type shootout to settle the issue?

I'll get my armor protection body suit out.....
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  #316  
Old 18.01.2011, 19:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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People think it's worth to sacrifice 300 people every year for the "freedom" of having army weapons at home...
Those 300 victims which keep popping up relentlessly in these discussions are a complete misrepresentation of the facts, because almost all of them are suicides. E.g. in 2009, 26 people were killed by firearms if you leave out the suicides. Quite a difference from those sensationalist threehundred, isn't it?

Unfortunately, Swiss police statistics don't list whether the guns used to kill those 26 victims were legally owned or not, but I think we can safely assume that someone who is willing to kill a fellow human will not hesitate to ignore even the strictest gun law and obtain a gun on the black market.

As far as suicides are concerned, trying to reduce them by banning guns is utterly laughable as there are so many other methods to kill oneself.
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  #317  
Old 18.01.2011, 19:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The weapon's important too. I'm sure that in the UK if guns were legalised you'd see a rise in violence.
A rise in violence? or a rise in the use of guns, I think that people tend to mix violence with the way it is manifested, a violent person could use a gun instead of a knife, but he was already violent. Would non violent people become violent if they have acces to a gun? I would not.
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Old 18.01.2011, 22:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Those 300 victims which keep popping up relentlessly in these discussions are a complete misrepresentation of the facts, because almost all of them are suicides. E.g. in 2009, 26 people were killed by firearms if you leave out the suicides. Quite a difference from those sensationalist threehundred, isn't it?

Unfortunately, Swiss police statistics don't list whether the guns used to kill those 26 victims were legally owned or not, but I think we can safely assume that someone who is willing to kill a fellow human will not hesitate to ignore even the strictest gun law and obtain a gun on the black market.

As far as suicides are concerned, trying to reduce them by banning guns is utterly laughable as there are so many other methods to kill oneself.
But I bet guns it's most favorable....stabbing yourself, or drilling yourself to death takes time...and needs more precision...

many acts were done impulsive ie was not planned....so when during these situations when there are no guns available the outcome will be less bloody...
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Old 18.01.2011, 22:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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A rise in violence? or a rise in the use of guns, I think that people tend to mix violence with the way it is manifested, a violent person could use a gun instead of a knife, but he was already violent. Would non violent people become violent if they have acces to a gun? I would not.
if you buy a gun means that you are a person who is prepared to shoot someone...tells a lot about character...
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Old 18.01.2011, 22:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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many acts were done impulsive ie was not planned....so when during these situations when there are no guns available the outcome will be less bloody...
You reckon?



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