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Old 19.01.2011, 22:09
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you people are arguing about the government telling us what to do......
Actually we're arguing about a proposal brought by a petition of at least 100, 000 citizens to try and change the current laws. It has taken years to get it this far.

This is a referendum put to the vote of the people. If the people vote YES then the government will have to change the law.

This is the people telling the government what to do ... Switzerland is a true democracy. If this gets through (most referendums don't though, because too many people don't exercise their right to vote, so "no" is the default) it will truly reflect what the people want ie to have reserve army weapons stored at the base instead of in the general population's homes, and require licenses for private gun ownership.
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Old 19.01.2011, 22:22
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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(most referendums don't though, because too many people don't exercise their right to vote, so "no" is the default)
Not true. It doesn't matter how many people turn out to vote.

However an initiative (but not a referendum) needs a double majority (i.e. majority of voters and majority of cantons) to pass.

BTW this thread is about an initiative.
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Old 19.01.2011, 22:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If this gets through (most referendums don't though, because too many people don't exercise their right to vote, so "no" is the default)
Sorry to pull you up, it's a very impassioned post and clearly something you feel quite strongly about, but this bit makes particularly little sense. The result of a referendum is determined by those who do vote; there is no such thing as a "no by default". Uncast votes simply don't count either way.

(By the way, supposing this doesn't get through - that result will also "truly reflect what the people want", right? Either way it is still democracy, still "people telling the government what to do" etc. etc. Guess we'll have to wait and see.)
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  #364  
Old 19.01.2011, 22:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

People who don't vote should lose the right to complain
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Old 19.01.2011, 22:46
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And requiring such a permit is exactly what the initiative wants
Yes, among many other things. If the initiative would simply require the current permit for all types of guns, I wouldn't mind. But the problem is that the initiative goes much further than that.
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Old 19.01.2011, 22:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Places where I've felt safe:

Switzerland: lots of guns in the possession of law-abiding citizens
Rural Mid West of United States: lots of guns in the possession of law-abiding citizens
Greece: lots of guns in the possession of, er, citizens.

Places where I've felt unsafe:

Manchester: few guns in the possession of law-abiding citizens; lots of guns in the possession of criminals.
London: few guns in the possession of law-abiding citizens; lots of guns in the possession of criminals.
Nottingham: few guns in the possession of law-abiding citizens; lots of guns in the possession of criminals.

Is it just me, or is there a pattern there?
lazy police?
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Old 19.01.2011, 22:58
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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People who don't vote should lose the right to complain
...about what? in general, or just the issue? Am I allowed to complain if I am NOT allowed to vote...? => Confused...
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Old 19.01.2011, 22:58
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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lazy police?
You must have missed Greece in the "safe" list...
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Old 19.01.2011, 23:03
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

If I could vote in this Referendum, it would be in favor of the initiative because I dislike firearms in general and don't feel comfortable around people carrying them. I haven't been growing up in an environment where is was common to own a gun and being taught how to use it properly like other posters in this thread have. So for me it was always guns equals bad.

And even though Switzerland is peaceful country despite all the firearms in circulation, it's not enough to change my mind.
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Old 19.01.2011, 23:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Yes, among many other things. If the initiative would simply require the current permit for all types of guns, I wouldn't mind. But the problem is that the initiative goes much further than that.
...just of curiosity, what exactly about it is the problem for gun lovers?
I red that even Swiss hunters support it...and high ranking officers of the Swiss Army...
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Old 19.01.2011, 23:29
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If I could vote in this Referendum, it would be in favor of the initiative because I dislike firearms in general and don't feel comfortable around people carrying them. I haven't been growing up in an environment where is was common to own a gun and being taught how to use it properly like other posters in this thread have. So for me it was always guns equals bad.

And even though Switzerland is peaceful country despite all the firearms in circulation, it's not enough to change my mind.
Nobody wants to change your mind , this is a democratic process.In 1960 I did my basic training,17weeks .When I was finish the government trusted me to take home the weapon ,this in turn buts a lot of responsibility on me.This makes me a responsible trustworthy person ,thats how I look at the whole thing ,I could`t care less having a stg 57 or not

Last edited by cannut; 21.01.2011 at 14:48.
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  #372  
Old 19.01.2011, 23:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I red that even Swiss hunters support it...
Don't know where you got that from, but this doesn't exactly look like support to me:

http://www.jagdschweiz.org/de/aktuell.php
  #373  
Old 20.01.2011, 00:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This made me laugh. Do you really think that the people working for the VBS are that stupid?
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The people working there are not stupid, BUT ..

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When the soldiers leave for the weekend:
1. Collect firearms from soldiers
2. Store firearms at the base
3. Guard them (thats what the guys on "Wache" do anyways")
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Soldiers leaving for the weekends do NOT take their weapons with them, so that this consideration is irrelevant.


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When the soldiers beginn their service:
1. Figure out how many soldiers are coming in
2. Figure out how many firearms you need (see step 1.)
3. Find a truck
4. Drive truck to the arsenal (the one from step 3.)
5. Retrieve correct number of firearms (see step 2.)
6. Load them on the truck
7. Drive the truck to the "Besammlungsort"
8. Distribute firearms to soldiers
2-- each weapon is assigned by its registration number to a particular soldier. This military law is NOT subject of the initiative
2-b--- by usual standards at those arsenals, the hand-out of the correct guns to the soldiers would take a minimum of 5 hours, and I here speak out of experience and not based on some theories
2-c--- you not necessarily start your next service at the same place where you did your last one

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I can see how this is awfully difficult, especially as you have to do the steps in the correct order, but if the VBS needs help, I can draw a nice flowchart for them.
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you can be sure that the VBS will reject your flowchart in a fury
  #374  
Old 20.01.2011, 09:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The people working there are not stupid, BUT ..
Can confirm that, as I know quite a few personally. Although, when it comes to IT or backgroud checks... lets say that they are not exactly the moste competent people in the world....

I think, the military can really be trusted when it comes to evaluate its personnel...They would never promote a stalker, would they...

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Soldiers leaving for the weekends do NOT take their weapons with them, so that this consideration is irrelevant.
heheh, mostly true, storing weapeons is widely practised....


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2-- each weapon is assigned by its registration number to a particular soldier. This military law is NOT subject of the initiative
2-b--- by usual standards at those arsenals, the hand-out of the correct guns to the soldiers would take a minimum of 5 hours, and I here speak out of experience and not based on some theories
2-c--- you not necessarily start your next service at the same place where you did your last one
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't actually a law. Adapting to new situations should, IMHO, be one of the core competences of a functioning army...


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you can be sure that the VBS will reject your flowchart in a fury
I know such "modern" ways are way beyond our army.


Funnily enough, I find that my friends who are high ranking, professional officers mostly agree with me when we talk strategy. Usually, the ones who disagree are low ranking militia officers and soldiers who have a tendency to vote SVP.

After all, the purpose of the swiss armed forces is NOT to preserve traditions, but to fulfil its mission such as it is defined by article 58 of the swiss constitution.
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Old 20.01.2011, 10:21
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Sorry to pull you up, it's a very impassioned post and clearly something you feel quite strongly about, but this bit makes particularly little sense. The result of a referendum is determined by those who do vote; there is no such thing as a "no by default". Uncast votes simply don't count either way.

(By the way, supposing this doesn't get through - that result will also "truly reflect what the people want", right? Either way it is still democracy, still "people telling the government what to do" etc. etc. Guess we'll have to wait and see.)
I stand corrected ... minority rules. You are right. even if only 30-40% of the people vote, which is apparently the norm, whatever the majority decide to vote (of the population that voted) will go through.

So please send off your postal vote "yes" today!

Lisa
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  #376  
Old 20.01.2011, 10:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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even if only 30-40% of the people vote, which is apparently the norm, whatever the majority decide to vote (of the population that voted) will go through.
Isn't that the case everywhere?

Tom
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Old 20.01.2011, 10:27
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Not true. It doesn't matter how many people turn out to vote.

However an initiative (but not a referendum) needs a double majority (i.e. majority of voters and majority of cantons) to pass.

BTW this thread is about an initiative.
Thankyou for correcting, agreed, it's an initiative not a referendum.

It's my understanding though that it only needs a majority of those that choose to vote (within each kanton), so it may be a majority of a minority that decides, right?

And a majority of kantions is also required.

This is not usually a majority of people eligible to vote though, as only 30-40% usually turn out.

So the minority who choose to vote, get to decide.

Choose yes- postal votes can be sent now, there is mo email voting in kt Zurich.

Lisa
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Old 20.01.2011, 10:35
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Isn't that the case everywhere?

Tom
Tom
I am not aware of any other country in the world that is a direct democracy - are you referring to voting for political representatives, which most countries do, or voting directly for initiatives? Only Switzerland let's the people decide directly, rather than via their members of parliament.

Hence I thought I should spell out that if you have an opinion, voting will help .... apathy won't help (in either direction, regardless of whether you vote yes or no, you should vote).

Lisa
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Old 20.01.2011, 10:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Speaking to many Swiss about this, my prognosis is that the initiative will not pass. Too many traditionalists out there and they are the ones who vote.
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Old 20.01.2011, 10:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Speaking to many Swiss about this, my prognosis is that the initiative will not pass. Too many traditionalists out there and they are the ones who vote.
I'm not sure. IMHO it will be very tight, with the possibility of having the (extremely rare) event that the popular vote is a yes while the majority of the cantons vote no.

The women will make the difference.
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