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Old 10.01.2011, 12:36
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Old 10.01.2011, 12:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I heard from a Swiss guy that his militia unit were issued one sealed box of ammo as well, after they finished their initial training, which had to be kept in a separate part of his apartment from the gun ... is this not the normal way? He said there were penalties if the sealed box was opened without orders ...
Could be! I heard that they were issued the ammo but had to give it back after the end of 'active' training... maybe I misunderstood though.
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Old 10.01.2011, 12:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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for a domestic dispute, it would be better that a gun is used rather than a kitchen knife as the report from the gun will notify neighbours/police and is likely to be less deadly than a knife.
Errr... fully automatic military-issued assault rifles are less deadly than kitchen knives? I don't think so.

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...and the counterargument to that is that in a militia-activation scenario, passing out one truckload of ammo is much easier (takes fewer vehicles, fewer men, less time) than passing out seven truckloads of guns and a truckload of ammo. Take the guns away and all future military planning/budgeting has to factor in the logistics of redistributing them, presumably while already being shot at.
(Not directed at you) This argument is just utter nonsense. The only case where the current practice makes any kind of strategic sense would be a full fledged ground invasion carried out by one of our direct neighbours with zero forewarning. As much as I distrust sneaky Liechtenstein, I just can't see that happening. Nor can two friend of mine who are professional officers in the swiss army.
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Old 10.01.2011, 12:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I have long thought on which discussion I should waste my 4000th post... this one is worth it


I am for strict gun control laws. But I do not really see a need to keep people away from them completely: Violent crimes are typically carried out with illegal guns, so the result of the Abstimmung will not have an impact on armed robberies or the like. If there are any indications that army guns or any other legal weapons are abused in crimes, you need to tackle that with a stricter control... but I do not see any statistics on legal weapons used in crimes and I am sure I would read about it at the moment if they would exist... the SP guys behind the votes usually mention only two areas in which the army weapons did in the past cause problems: Suicides and people running amok.

1. Suicides. I comuted long enough by train to realize that there are plenty of alternative ways to kill yourself. Maybe is a rifle a particularly easy method and therefore impacts the number of suicides, but if somebody really wants to, he can pretty easily kill himself with a car or a train track as well. I would enjoy any resaerch on that with a huge shovel full of salt: There can hardly be any independant and objective research on this in Switzerland as there are no "unarmed" control groups and all the assumptions on "what if" seem very biased depending on who sponsored the research...
2. Running amok. In most of the cases of the last years were all warning signs present: The kid in Winneden (in Southern Germany), one of the worst cases of the last years, was not accepted into the German army based on a psychological examination. The parents did not care about psychological reports from doctors and gave him access to weapons and an illegal amount of ammo... I honestly do not blame the gun for the deaths in that case. The "shooter from Höngg" for example stole the ammunition during his military service. If you plan to become a criminal, you can and you will - regardless of the vote. If I wanted an illegal gun, I am sure I would be able to get myself one in Zurich. If a soldier risks to steal ammunition to comit a murder, he might just as well steal a entire gun in the future.

In short: The SP points do seem to be a bit on the populistic side, just as well as the "but we need guns to protect ourselves" from the SVP - all of these arguments seem to be not really what is happening in reality.

I think that a question where the gun should be stored is completely missing the point: The Swiss army was organized the way it is when Nazi Germany was an immediate threat for Switzerland. Having a "Guerilla" army with distributed guns is a very good defense strategy - the costs to invade the country are high. This made still sense during the cold war, especially as Switzerland remained neutral and did not join the NATO. Newsflash: The cold war is over. For twenty years by now. This did not make the world a far more peaceful place, but the threats and challenges of the future are very likely not huge armies possibly invading Switzerland. So the real topic should be "What type of armed forces do we actually need?".
...Germany needed twenty years to decide as well: in 2011 will the country for the first time stop the draft.
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Old 10.01.2011, 12:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Could be! I heard that they were issued the ammo but had to give it back after the end of 'active' training... maybe I misunderstood though.

No, you didn't misunderstand. It just changed recently.
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Old 10.01.2011, 12:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I'm all for strict gun control, up until my daughters start dating....
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Old 10.01.2011, 12:59
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

The problem with gun related suicides is that it is an incredibly easy way to commit suicide based simply on a snap decision. Simplistically put - gun, head, bang, done.

With other forms of suicide more thought has to be put into the method of ones own demise. For example somebody with a knife would have to consider exactly how they would use it, and then whether they could go through with it. Also a knife is less likely to be as immediate as a gun therefore possibly allowing for help to be called given a change of mind. Hanging requires thought into constructing the required apparatus thus giving the person much needed time to reconsider. The same goes for jump and train suicides in that the person needs to get to an appropriate location in order to commit the act, thus again giving much needed time for consideration.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the removal of the gun will make family murder and suicide much more difficult and as such probably reduce the likelihood if this occurring.

As far as the "it will only leave the criminals armed" goes, well it will be situation unchanged. I don't know of any swiss that walk around armed (outside of the police that is) and as far as armed burglary is concerned by the time you know what's going on you won't have the time to locate gun, locate ammo, load gun and then use it.

Basically if these initiative gets passed, then I believe that it will have a very good effect on reducing the number of suicides, especially those that involve family murder, while the criminal situation will stay more or less the same.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:00
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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we need guns to protect ourselves" from the SVP
That'll stop their silly poster campaigns.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:00
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Errr... fully automatic military-issued assault rifles are less deadly than kitchen knives? I don't think so.
you are entitled to your wrong opinions.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

The sealed boxes aka "pocket ammunition" (Taschenmunition) are no longer stored at home and not issued anymore. I had to give mine back by the end of 2009. Returning it now is still possible and exempt from punishment.

After every shooting exercise the "munitionsbefehl" (ammunition order?) is stated and everyone who carries ammunition or parts of (even just cartridge stuck in your shoe) after that point is liable to prosecution. But this is it. I have seen many times that the issued ammo and shots fired are not really controlled. Unfortunately it is very very easy to take ammunition with you.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:06
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The problem with gun related suicides is that it is an incredibly easy way to commit suicide based simply on a snap decision. Simplistically put - gun, head, bang, done.

...

I think it's pretty safe to say that the removal of the gun will make family murder and suicide much more difficult and as such probably reduce the likelihood if this occurring.
Not if the ammunition is safely locked away. If you need to steal some or go through some lengthy process of being allowed to buy some rounds it is hardly a snap decision anymore.
My brother in law has some not-so-dangerous sport guns in Germany and I teased him before that with the money and time spent on getting all licenses in place, I could have easily bought him a Makarov in the not so safe part of town instead...
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:06
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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gun, head, bang, done.
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time to locate gun, locate ammo, load gun and then use it.
different when committing suicide and when shooting someone else?

take knife, slice throat, done.

or less messy: take scarf/rope, tie it to something, insert neck, pass out. done.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This is a pretty undeniable cost, so you have to argue that the peacetime benefits are worth it...
assuming that there are any.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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or less messy: take scarf/rope, tie it to something, insert neck, pass out. done.
The idea of hanging is not to "pass out" but to break ones neck...
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Errr... fully automatic military-issued assault rifles are less deadly than kitchen knives? I don't think so.
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you are entitled to your wrong opinions.
I think you two should have a duel to decide who's really right.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:11
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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different when committing suicide and when shooting someone else?

take knife, slice throat, done.

or less messy: take scarf/rope, tie it to something, insert neck, pass out. done.
You forgot: bring charcoal grill into house, load with charcoal and ignite, close doors and windows, go to sleep, don't wake up.

Tom
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Wild-a$$ guess: Arguably, one of the reasons for the low rate of gun-related deaths in Switzerland is the high rate of firearm education (and social indoctrination) through the military and thus the reduced 'cowboy' mentality of solving problems by use of force. Criminals don't tend to go to hunter safety training classes....
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I don't see the comparisons with other "weapons", of course you could kill someone with a pencil...

Knives, pencils, carrots, ropes etc. can be used for various purposes. What is the purpose of the army gun/rifle? Shooting your way free to get to the assembly point in the case of an invasion....is this it? I really can't see the need or how I as a citizen am negatively affected if I don't have it stored at home anymore.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I think you two should have a duel to decide who's really right.
What's important isn't the weapon, it's the desire and will to use it. To quote a line from a movie: "I'm not afraid of the man who wants ten nuclear weapons, Colonel. I'm terrified of the man who only wants one."
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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What's important isn't the weapon, it's the desire and will to use it. To quote a line from a movie: "I'm not afraid of the man who wants ten nuclear weapons, Colonel. I'm terrified of the man who only wants one."
The weapon's important too. I'm sure that in the UK if guns were legalised you'd see a rise in violence.
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