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Old 29.01.2011, 22:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Australia like England, safer???

Many more jail build in Australia, due to criminal increases since the gun ban.
Nearly every house has full security bars and windows because people don't feel safe anymore. Government protects the criminals.
you injure a burglar, and he can now sue you for time unable to work.
non of this happened like this before the gun ban.

I didn't think you Swiss were this silly to just accept this... this will not end here.

wake up people...
Absolute bull.

For starters, it was not a 'gun ban', it was adopting a Federal regulation of firearms registration - in which many requirements were relaxed in some states, including NSW (eg, halving the minimum annual number of visits to a registered pistol club in order to keep your pistol shooting licence).

There have long been laws restricting private citizens from having firearms in many states of Australia, as far back as the 18th Century - in fact there was a big problem in 1796, when the government recalled a large number of firearms that had been issued, and got about a sixth accounted for ...

Also, bars on doors and windows? I have a very large extended family, scattered around every state and territory of Australia (except Tasmania ...), and none have bars on doors or windows. None of them have ever been attacked by a person with a firearm, either. Strange, that ... how could that statistical anomaly be? I mean, we've sat down to Christmas lunch at one of our big reunions and there were about 140 of us all together - and none of us have suffered from this rampant gun crime, or even felt the need to put bars in the windows? Bizarre
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Old 29.01.2011, 22:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Let's look at the firearms-related deaths in Europe
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/27/2/214.pdf
I'm sorry, but your source lists data from the early 90s. It's utterly useless for this debate.
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Old 29.01.2011, 22:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This forthcoming referendum Feb 13, 2011 will be a close run thing I figure. The vote would have a fairly drastic effect on Switzerland which has one of the highest number of firearms per population ratios in the world (because of the militia army concept).

For the referendum:

http://www.schutz-vor-waffengewalt.ch/

The pro referendum group are seeking:
- Store all army issued weapons in army depots and arsenals
- A national firearms register
- Potential firearm owners should be able to prove why they need a weapon and should be of good standing.
- Withdrawal of surplus guns from circulation.


And the "keep things as they are" fraternity:

http://www.waffeninitiative-nein.ch/

The opposition's arguments:
- The initiative's aims are an illusion and will not bring any better safety conditions.
- The initiative takes away the trust factor from the Swiss population and undermines the concept of our militia army.
- A yes vote would only create new rules and administration, which implies greater costs for no tangible results.
- The initiative is an affront to traditional Swiss values and will create problems for established gun clubs, hunters and farmers.

This is pretty much the rifle clubs and SVP trying to keep things all cozy and traditionalist.

I believe that there's more than enough good arguments to have weapons either taken out of (relatively) free circulation and locked up or decommissioned entirely. The right wing is plain wrong on this one in my opinion and hasn't grasped the ethical shift in people's opinions who have simply had enough of people resorting to guns to settle domestic disputes or suicide attempts. The figures are blurry about exactly how many gun related deaths occur annually in Switzerland, but the pro-initiative lobby put the number at 300.

The arguments about people who are going to commit crimes whatever the laws of a land may be are bound to be rolled out, but why make their lives any easier by keeping firearms unlicensed and in free circulation? Guns are designed to kill, so leave them in the hands of the active army and with police forces. An assault rifle (Sturmgewehr) has no place in the domestic home in my vision of a peaceful future. The Russians ain't coming....

For those of you who can vote, exercise your rights February 13, your children will thank you.

Sadly I do not have the right to vote, but my wife does.

She will vote "No"

I do not share "your vision of a peaceful future" It sucks. Perhaps you would like us all to eat nut roast as well? I enjoy my shooting and I have little time for people who try to deny me my right to participate in my chosen sport.

Last edited by Conor; 29.01.2011 at 23:14.
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  #564  
Old 29.01.2011, 23:03
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Pointless telling me about Australia, I lost too much with the gun ban...

Where I lived everyone had bars on the windows, either in steel or aloy...

every house in my street except mine have been robbed allready. they left a window without bars...

I know the laws too well in Aust. I used to build weapons for the movies as well that stopped with the ban... I miss my hobby, due to idiotic laws
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  #565  
Old 29.01.2011, 23:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I'm sorry, but your source lists data from the early 90s. It's utterly useless for this debate.
You missed the point. The info is historical, but it shows that controls could lead to good results and that Switzerland does have problems with firearms-death. Hence, the advantages and the need for the initiative.
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Old 29.01.2011, 23:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Switzerland does have problems with firearms-death. Hence, the advantages and the need for the initiative.

Why fix what is not broken.

This is my second stint in this wonderful country. My wife, a local bought me a Stgw 90 as a wedding present, which I thought was rather novel. However as my real love is stalking and hunting, it took me a while to get used to having a military rifle in the safe at home. I have grown to enjoy target practise and I have met many wonderful people, men and women both young and old.

Is there a need for Switzerland to maintain a militia in this day and age? That, I can not answer. Is there a need for a firearms register. No, not at all. In order to obtain a Waffenerwerbscien, one has to get a strafregister, basically a criminal background check; if it`s clear, one gets the Waffenerwerschien. The system has worked well in the past and continues to work now. Why change it? The Swiss are renowned as a wonderfully secretive and discreet people; unless the police go knocking on people`s doors and start seaching their cellars, do you really think the Swiss will register or relinquish their arms most of which have been handed down from one generation to another.

Firearms are not the issue...................its the person holding it. More wars have been started with words than with guns, the pen being mightier than the sword. But then again would you hold a pen responsible for a spelling mistake, libel etc....................just asking?
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  #567  
Old 30.01.2011, 08:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I guess some people don't see the point at all, if you do not take into account the history you will never learn.

As said, the weapons are not the problem its people.

And Switzerland does not have a real firearm problem.

Since being here I only know people who have hanged themselves. a shame as some were friends. we do not discuss banning rope or registering rope?

As its a social problem as well. not a gun problem
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Old 30.01.2011, 11:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why fix what is not broken.

This is my second stint in this wonderful country. My wife, a local bought me a Stgw 90 as a wedding present, which I thought was rather novel. However as my real love is stalking and hunting, it took me a while to get used to having a military rifle in the safe at home. I have grown to enjoy target practise and I have met many wonderful people, men and women both young and old.

Is there a need for Switzerland to maintain a militia in this day and age? That, I can not answer. Is there a need for a firearms register. No, not at all. In order to obtain a Waffenerwerbscien, one has to get a strafregister, basically a criminal background check; if it`s clear, one gets the Waffenerwerschien. The system has worked well in the past and continues to work now. Why change it? The Swiss are renowned as a wonderfully secretive and discreet people; unless the police go knocking on people`s doors and start seaching their cellars, do you really think the Swiss will register or relinquish their arms most of which have been handed down from one generation to another.

Firearms are not the issue...................its the person holding it. More wars have been started with words than with guns, the pen being mightier than the sword. But then again would you hold a pen responsible for a spelling mistake, libel etc....................just asking?
First your wife is very romantic...an assault weapon as a wedding gift...who would ask for anything more?

Just a question, why do you feel that there is no need to register a weapon? What is the disadvantage?

Also, why don't you feel it makes sense that a person should show that he can handle a weapon in a proper way...

Is not gun control helping everyone?
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  #569  
Old 30.01.2011, 12:11
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The idea of hanging is not to "pass out" but to break ones neck...
Tell that to David Carradine.

I would expect restriction of access to firearms and ammunition will result in less deaths or maiming by firearms. But will other methods be substituted for to the same, more or to a lesser extent?

As is my wont, I went looking for facts and did the following:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourc...ut=googleabout

and "loaded" the first link

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?...=1&oi=scholart
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Conclusions
—When pediatricians are faced with a suicidal adolescent, they should insist on the removal of firearms from the home. Pediatricians should also inform parents that the presence of firearms may be associated with adolescent suicide even in the absence of clear psychiatric illness.
This doesn't appear to consider substitution of firearms for non-firearms.

But the above paper cited this one, which does:

Recent psychopathology, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts in households with and without firearms: findings from the National Comorbidity Study Replication

Quote:
Conclusions: The previously reported association between household firearm ownership and heightened risk of suicide is not explained by a higher risk of psychopathology among gun-owning families. As there are Americans with suicidal ideation and/or significant and recent psychiatric disorders currently living in homes with firearms, future work should focus on understanding the impediments to effectively communicating the suicide risk associated with household firearms.
So it was only one search, 3 clicks and 5-10 minutes of reading to come up with something approaching objectivity on this issue.

Does anyone know of any more peer-reviewed studies that measure the effects on violence when access to firearms is restricted?

Last edited by BeastOfBodmin; 30.01.2011 at 12:27. Reason: Made it a bit longer.
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Old 30.01.2011, 12:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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why do you feel that there is no need to register a weapon? What is the disadvantage?
Simple.

Should a government gone crazy decide to confiscate all weapons of law-abiding citizens, they would know where they are.

Bad idea.

Tom
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Old 30.01.2011, 12:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

The approach here is way too Anglo-Saxon. It's not possible to apply the conditioned mentality to Switzerland. The issues are just not the same. This is a neutral peaceful country, there is no need.
Reading some of you, makes me think y'all grew up in a large dangerous city or somethin'.
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Old 30.01.2011, 12:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I did, and lived through what is happening now, this is why I am concerned and say what I do.

It starts this way...

all respect in society will disapear, and life here will become much harder...

it is hard to understand but it is the way it is...

divide and conquer...

show why guns are bad, it is not the guns that are the problem it is people. here things are not bad at all, keep it this way.

Keep Swiss for Swiss
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Old 30.01.2011, 13:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Does anyone know of any more peer-reviewed studies that measure the effects on violence when access to firearms is restricted?
Yes:

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi...act/96/10/1752

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/s...91/3/253?rss=1

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Simple.

Should a government gone crazy decide to confiscate all weapons of law-abiding citizens, they would know where they are.

Bad idea.

Tom
The funny thing is this: While the national register is not the most important argument for the initiative, it also not an important argument against it:

Status quo: 26 different registers, linked to each other, so every cantonal plus the federal government actually knows who owns weapons.

With the initiative: 1 central register where the cantonal and the federal government has access.

So much for hiding your guns from the government.
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Old 30.01.2011, 18:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Sam - you are great.
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Old 30.01.2011, 18:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I did, and lived through what is happening now, this is why I am concerned and say what I do.

It starts this way...

all respect in society will disapear, and life here will become much harder...

it is hard to understand but it is the way it is...

divide and conquer...

show why guns are bad, it is not the guns that are the problem it is people. here things are not bad at all, keep it this way.

Keep Swiss for Swiss
Sound so much like Eddie Izzard's it's not the the guns that kill people it's the people- but I think the guns help don't you?
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Old 30.01.2011, 18:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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We won! Ours was 3x YES!
Ah, but will the US postal service get them here on time?

Or will they go postal?

Tom
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Old 30.01.2011, 18:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Ah, but will the US postal service get them here on time?

Or will they go postal?

Tom
Already in! I voted on-line.

I have not problems voting on-line when it is run by the Swiss and no problem with lots of surveillence cameras everywhere, that's how they are catching thugs in Switzerland. It's a big brother I can trust!
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Old 30.01.2011, 19:11
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Already in! I voted on-line.

I have not problems voting on-line when it is run by the Swiss and no problem with lots of surveillence cameras everywhere, that's how they are catching thugs in Switzerland. It's a big brother I can trust!
Just remind us where you live, again?
  #579  
Old 30.01.2011, 19:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Just remind us where you live, again?
Upstate NY and? You can vote on-line it's easy. I just monitored the computerized voting system here, In the US elections.
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Old 30.01.2011, 19:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Upstate NY and?
Well, that might explain why you have no problem with the installation of surveillance cameras in Switzerland.

You know, with it being several thousand miles away and all...
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