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  #41  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

As I understand the soldiers are issued with an automatic rifle with an unusual bore size, currently 5.6mm, and the amnunition cannot easily be purchased. The officers are issued with 9 mm standard bore pistols. Both men can apply to keep their weapon after they retire from their military service.

Statistiks for the general issue automatic rifle, old and new types,
http://www.lba.admin.ch/internet/lba...ng/stgw57.html
http://www.lba.admin.ch/internet/lba...ng/stgw90.html

Statistiks for the officers pistols, old and new types,
http://www.lba.admin.ch/internet/lba...ng/pist49.html
http://www.lba.admin.ch/internet/lba...ng/pist75.html

The Amnution is kept sealed in a sardine type tin (24 pistol or 50 rifle rounds)
http://www.lba.admin.ch/internet/lba...3.html#faq0003

Boys toys are dangerous and should be controlled and safely locked up. Personally I would like to vote yes. I see no advantage in keeping weapons at home, only disadvantages and dangers.

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Old 10.01.2011, 13:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Knives, pencils, carrots, ropes etc.
Did you watch "Shoot 'em up" lately? (As the movie is essentially about gun control, this is even on topic!)

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  #43  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Even if it's locked in a safe where a child can't get at it? What exactly are you afraid of? What about the kitchen knives?
Problem is, it is not a legal requirement to lock your arm - and many keep it in the bedroom cupboard, or wherever. I shall defo be voting a big YES. However I know all my neighbours will be voting a big NO, as there is a big tradition here of shooting club and competitions.

It seems that as the Law stands, Shooting Clubs are not allowed to keep firearms themselves - even in a supersafe locker, with designated key holders. If that was the case, then many more would agree and vote YES - for us the nearest official arsenal is a very long way away - so would sign the death of most rural shooting clubs. Wouldn't bother me - and our dog would be absolutely delighted, as she shakes and cowers 2 evenings a week, and Saturday mornings. Why do they make these sublime to ridiculous choices - and not allow for sensible measures as mentionned above for shooting clubs?
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:28
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The weapon's important too. I'm sure that in the UK if guns were legalised you'd see a rise in violence.
Probably, but there already seems to be enough violence there. You'd just be adding guns into the mix. I'm even more out of my element talking about the UK than about CH.
  #45  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

What I don't understand is why are these 'public spirited' gun carrying members of the public who defend us all from criminals and wild animals and such are never there to shoot the nutters that mercilessly gun people down.

The only answer I can see is that the normal everyday gun slinger actually IS the nutter that mercilessly guns people down.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The weapon's important too. I'm sure that in the UK if guns were legalised you'd see a rise in violence.
Genuine question - was there any decrease in violence when they were banned?
  #47  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

From a rather simplistic viewpoint, illegally owned guns were all legally acquired at some stage or other. As far as I'm concerned, the less guns in circulation, the better.
  #48  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It seems that as the Law stands, Shooting Clubs are not allowed to keep firearms themselves - even in a supersafe locker, with designated key holders.
Hopefully so: Gun clubs are typically next to the shooting range - due to the noise typically not exactly in the center of the village. Nobody is there all night and even the safest safe can be opened... You would create an easy target with a treasure chest full of guns for any serious criminal. That sounds like a far worse plan than the current situation... and reminds me of a case in the Netherlands where an army depot was robbed. The fun twist was that the police later found and brought back more guns than the army was actually missing....
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I think you two should have a duel to decide who's really right.
No problem, if I get the Stgw 90
  #50  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:35
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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From a rather simplistic viewpoint, illegally owned guns were all legally acquired at some stage or other. As far as I'm concerned, the less guns in circulation, the better.
Too simplistic. The vast majority of illegal guns are very likely smuggeled into Europe from Eastern Europe a.k.a. the former Eastern block. You cannot dry this basically unlimited supply out through any local law. As long as there is demand, there will be supply.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:36
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The idea of hanging is not to "pass out" but to break ones neck...
who said anything about hanging?
  #52  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:36
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I heard from a Swiss guy that his militia unit were issued one sealed box of ammo as well, after they finished their initial training, which had to be kept in a separate part of his apartment from the gun ... is this not the normal way? He said there were penalties if the sealed box was opened without orders ...
That's the way it was done for at least 60 years, but I don't know how the matter is handled these days, since I left the army in the 'eighties. Other posters mentioned changes.

Anyway, in former times, the system made perfect sense. The Swiss Army reserves were able to mobilize to the full bunch of about 650'000 troops ('fifties through 'eighties) within 48 hours. Even without a single soldier getting in touch with an army depot, e.g. due to heavy interference from enemy paratroopers, sabotage and the like, there still were about 15 million rounds right where they were meant to be used, namely on the soldier.

As for the casualties caused by army weapons kept at home, most of the propaganda is based on a study by Silke Grabherr et. al., published in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology #1 2010. It is used to prove the immense role army weapons kept at home play in violence in Switzerland.

The study lists cases of suicides after killing other people (mostly family members) in 20 years (1984 - 2004) in nine cantons encompassing about 50% of the Swiss population. Looking at the figures very carefully and using a simple pocket calculator, you'll find out that there were about 1.2 cases per year (no typo!) in the whole country with army firearms involved.

Granted, that's 1.2 cases too many, but compare that with alcoholism, motorized traffic, environmental hazards, crimes involving illegal firearms or other means, sports accidents, risks of lousy nutrition, accidents at home, medical malpractice etc. -- all you can say is WTF.

Of course, registering firearms makes sense in many ways, but I don't think it will save a single life. No one really knows if I own a firearm or not. In order to have nay impact, the authorities would have to thoroughly search every household down to the toolbox in the basement.

Criminals won't get their arms registered. Someone who wants to commit suicide will do find another way, maybe failing and vegetating for the rest of their life as a basket case.

To Treverus: You wrote, "The idea of hanging is not to 'pass out' but to break ones neck..." -- correct, provided it is used as a method for death penalty. However, most hangings done for committing suicide don't break necks but just strangulate. You pass out within seconds anyway.
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  #53  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The only answer I can see is that the normal everyday gun slinger actually IS the nutter that mercilessly guns people down.
You watch too many movies. Are you implying that all law-abiding gun-owners are actually psychopathic nutjobs just waiting to pop a spring and gun down a crowd at a mall? If so, why don't you see a lot more of that in Switzerland with such a high gun ownership rate? Could you explain that to us please?

FWIW, I don't own any guns. Never have. I just grew up around them and had some training in school and from my parents. Mostly, I dislike fear-mongering and decisions based on emotion and not fact. Legitimate gun owners in Switzerland don't scare me. It's the ones that don't buy their guns at a shop and hence are not going to follow any sort of legislation about gun registration and storage no matter how earnest it is. I have not problems with gun registration and rules about storage either (though the latter should be common sense), but rules in this regard are not going to solve the problems they are attempting to address.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This need a explanation
  #55  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Hopefully so: Gun clubs are typically next to the shooting range - due to the noise typically not exactly in the center of the village. Nobody is there all night and even the safest safe can be opened... You would create an easy target with a treasure chest full of guns for any serious criminal. That sounds like a far worse plan than the current situation... and reminds me of a case in the Netherlands where an army depot was robbed. The fun twist was that the police later found and brought back more guns than the army was actually missing....

Excellent point. Perhaps then the solution would be for Gun clubs arms to be kept at the local police station which is wo/manned 24.7.? Or in the village nuclear bunker? It should be possible to find a solution which does not mean the death of the long tradition of Gun clubs (a reminder here that everyone who is a serving soldier in CH has to have regular shooting practice). Not a tradition I personally care for, but all the same.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You watch too many movies. Are you implying that all law-abiding gun-owners are actually psychopathic nutjobs just waiting to pop a spring and gun down a crowd at a mall? If so, why don't you see a lot more of that in Switzerland with such a high gun ownership rate? Could you explain that to us please?
I'm not talking about regular gun owners I'm talking about guys walking around with six shooters strapped to their waists like sheriff Long bear and Billy the kid, Iím posing the question that these guys are probably more likely to cause trouble, and are less likely to be the 'Lone ranger'.
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Old 10.01.2011, 13:53
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Anyway, in former times, the system made perfect sense.
does it now?
  #58  
Old 10.01.2011, 13:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Perhaps then the solution would be for Gun clubs arms to be kept at the local police station which is wo/manned 24.7.?
Most police stations are not manned 24/7.

Around here, they aren't even manned at lunch time!

Tom
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:00
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This need a explanation
this is a picture of the little girl that was killed in Arizona when the representative was shot.
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  #60  
Old 10.01.2011, 14:07
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

We parked at our local ski slopes about 15 years ago- the car-park is next to a barrack occasionally used for army recruits. After unloading, and as we were walking to the lifts, our youngest daughter noticed a gun against the wall next to the car-park. It was a machine gun with a fully loaded 'cartouche'. I went to the door of the barracks and explained and the soldier said 'Of f*** wondered where I'd left it!'.
Which shows how casual some are about their guns here.

From what I can gather, this Law is not about criminals, but about suicide, domestic and accidental shootings and the danger of kids/teenagers getting access to said guns. Since when does saying to kids 'thou shalt not' works?
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