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  #581  
Old 30.01.2011, 19:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Upstate NY and?
Hmmmm.

I spent 5 years in Troy.

I got married (while on vacation) in Brewster.

My life revolves around upstate NY.

It took my daughter 9 hours to go the 200 miles from Poughkeepsie to Montreal earlier this month!

I miss ice-racing!

Tom
  #582  
Old 30.01.2011, 19:44
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Well, that might explain why you have no problem with the installation of surveillance cameras in Switzerland.

You know, with it being several thousand miles away and all...
My husband enjoys it too, he can monitor me by clicking onto the cameras that accessible are on the web like the airport etc. So I make sure that I always wave
  #583  
Old 30.01.2011, 19:46
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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My husband enjoys it too, he can monitor me by clicking in to the cameras that accessible are on the web like the airport etc. So I make sure that I always wave
Which airport? JFK? La Guardia?
  #584  
Old 30.01.2011, 20:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Which airport? JFK? La Guardia?
And Zuerich Go to this www.redics.ch then zoom in Davos is nice but it's dark right now!
  #585  
Old 30.01.2011, 20:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And Zuerich
You'll have to let us know when you're coming over next. We'll have to go for a stange or two.

I promise I'll wave at the cameras for you.
  #586  
Old 30.01.2011, 20:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You'll have to let us know when you're coming over next. We'll have to go for a stange or two.

I promise I'll wave at the cameras for you.
I usually arrange meetings I think there are no cameras.
  #587  
Old 30.01.2011, 20:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I usually arrange meetings I think there are no cameras.
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Old 30.01.2011, 21:24
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

It's time we do like the Chinese, all cutlery is now going in a central lock-up. because we feel threatned by people with this. you can only go and get it if you have a valid reason.
All Cars will now be locked up in a central location, you need a valid reason to use one. needing it for work is not a valid reason.
All rope is banned.
Kitchen knives are banned.
screwdrivers are in a central lock-up.
All guns are in a central lock-up
All tablets will now only be given daily at your local hospital.
All other medical and drugs are banned.
All highrise buildings will have complete fencing on the roof.
All windows will be permanently locked.
All bridges will be fenced.

All the above are for your own protection, just in case you want to use any to take your own or someone else's life.

It is for your own good...
  #589  
Old 30.01.2011, 21:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It's time we do like the Chinese, all cutlery is now going in a central lock-up. because we feel threatned by people with this. you can only go and get it if you have a valid reason.
All Cars will now be locked up in a central location, you need a valid reason to use one. needing it for work is not a valid reason.
All rope is banned.
Kitchen knives are banned.
screwdrivers are in a central lock-up.
All guns are in a central lock-up
All tablets will now only be given daily at your local hospital.
All other medical and drugs are banned.
All highrise buildings will have complete fencing on the roof.
All windows will be permanently locked.
All bridges will be fenced.

All the above are for your own protection, just in case you want to use any to take your own or someone else's life.

It is for your own good...
What about cheese?

You didn't say anything about the cheese.

The Chinese don't eat cheese, do they?
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  #590  
Old 30.01.2011, 22:22
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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What about cheese?

You didn't say anything about the cheese.

The Chinese don't eat cheese, do they?
Now, yew listen here, DeeBee. Me and mah boys in the militia, we don' take too kindly to folks who don' excercise their freedom to own at least twelve fully-automatic rifles and a home Flak gun outfit. In fact, me and the boys were getting round to thinking that without guns, you must be some kinda commie or a pretty boy. Jus saying, like. Now, you wouldn't wanna end up bein' hogtied and dragged into town on the back of mah pick-up, would yew, boy? I'd suggest yew use your freedom and get yew a real man's gun.
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Old 30.01.2011, 22:24
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Now, yew listen here, DeeBee. Me and mah boys in the militia, we don' take too kindly to folks who don' excercise their freedom to own at least twelve fully-automatic rifles and a home Flak gun outfit. In fact, me and the boys were getting round to thinking that without guns, you must be some kinda commie or a pretty boy. Jus saying, like. Now, you wouldn't wanna end up bein' hogtied and dragged into town on the back of mah pick-up, would yew, boy? I'd suggest yew use your freedom and get yew a real man's gun.
I knew I shouldn't have taken my laptop to America with me at Christmas. I must have left the sound recorder running...
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  #592  
Old 30.01.2011, 22:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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First your wife is very romantic...an assault weapon as a wedding gift...who would ask for anything more?

Just a question, why do you feel that there is no need to register a weapon? What is the disadvantage?

Also, why don't you feel it makes sense that a person should show that he can handle a weapon in a proper way...

Is not gun control helping everyone?
She is very romantic indeed. As a gift, it was quite novel and having shot at Albisgutli, and expressed an interest in the sport, I was delighted with the gift.

As for a weapons register; it is probably far too late to create as the number of arms in Switzerland is incalculable.

Only those can that demonstrate their ability to handle a firearm safely should be allowed one. Given that most Swiss learn to shoot in their youth, it is easy to surmise that they have learned to handle a weapon safely from the outset. Your comment about handling weapons safely is nonsensical.

The first country to bring in gun control was the USSR immediately after the revolution. I am sure that you are bright enough to work the reasons why they did that. As they say in America "go figure"

There are more than adequate gun controls in Switzerland. As I explained in my previous post, there is a process to buy a gun in Switzerland which also involves an interview with the police. The weapons initiative whilst it does contain the very odd decent proposal, sadly, will only demonize legitimate shooters and hunters. By all means, disband the militia and keep military weapons in the barracks, but do not place further restrictions on the rights of responsible gun owners
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  #593  
Old 30.01.2011, 23:03
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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She is very romantic indeed. As a gift, it was quite novel and having shot at Albisgutli, and expressed an interest in the sport, I was delighted with the gift.

As for a weapons register; it is probably far too late to create as the number of arms in Switzerland is incalculable.

Only those can that demonstrate their ability to handle a firearm safely should be allowed one. Given that most Swiss learn to shoot in their youth, it is easy to surmise that they have learned to handle a weapon safely from the outset. Your comment about handling weapons safely is nonsensical.

The first country to bring in gun control was the USSR immediately after the revolution. I am sure that you are bright enough to work the reasons why they did that. As they say in America "go figure"

There are more than adequate gun controls in Switzerland. As I explained in my previous post, there is a process to buy a gun in Switzerland which also involves an interview with the police. The weapons initiative whilst it does contain the very odd decent proposal, sadly, will only demonize legitimate shooters and hunters. By all means, disband the militia and keep military weapons in the barracks, but do not place further restrictions on the rights of responsible gun owners
Huhhhh....

  1. There is a register.
  2. You can buy rifles without a permission
  3. Hunters, collectors and sportsmen can keep their guns
Read the thread please.
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Old 31.01.2011, 08:22
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Huhhhh....

  1. There is a register.
  2. You can buy rifles without a permission
  3. Hunters, collectors and sportsmen can keep their guns
Read the thread please.

Sam

Firstly, there is a register of sorts; only guns sold since November 2009 have been registered. Therefore any guns held in private ownership prior to that date are not registered and as such, the register is incomplete.

I am sure that you can buy rifles without "a permission" If you try hard enough, you could probably buy a handgun and a grenade launcher as well, but in doing so, you would be breaking the law. In order to purchase a firearm of any kind in Switzerland, save for an air gun, you need a Waffenerwerbschien. This document is needed to purchase a gun from a gunshop and is also needed when one is purchasing a gun from a private individual. I know this, because every time that I have tried to purchase a gun, I had to produce a Waffenerwerschien.

You also state that hunters and collectors will be able to keep their weapons. Given the breadth of the new initiative and the lack of thought that has gone into it, your comment is not 100% correct. Only bona Fidel hunters will escape serious restriction. Collectors, weekend shooters and fun gunners could fin themselves completely disenfranchised in the worst possible case.

"Huhh..............."
  #595  
Old 31.01.2011, 08:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Read the thread please.
To be fair 30 pages is a lot. Plus you posted some nice epidemiological studies (even more to read).

Let's make it easier by posting the conclusions:

http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi...act/96/10/1752

"Legislation and regulatory measures reducing the availability of firearms in private households can distinctly strengthen the prevention of firearm suicides."

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/s...91/3/253?rss=1

"Restrictive firearm legislation should be an integral part of national suicide prevention programmes in countries with high firearm suicide rates."
  #596  
Old 31.01.2011, 08:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

If somebody wants to take their life, they will do so.

Removing access to a firearm does not deal with the underlying problems. You cannot legislate for stupid people, well you can but stupid will always find a way to do what stupid wants to do, be it take drugs, or commit suicide.
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  #597  
Old 31.01.2011, 09:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Sam
Hello

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Firstly, there is a register of sorts; only guns sold since November 2009 have been registered. Therefore any guns held in private ownership prior to that date are not registered and as such, the register is incomplete.
And the initiative, in the proposed text, states in Art. 118a Abs. 5 that the federal governemnt shall have a central register (not 26 registers, linked to each other, same difference). The scope of this register would have to be specified by the parliament, which is dominated by parties who are against the initiative.

And, oh wait, if the federal legislators want a more complete register, they can do so, Initiative or not, as Art. 107 of the swiss constitution gives them the right to do so.

Basically, the only difference the initiative makes in regard to the register is its physical location.

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I am sure that you can buy rifles without "a permission" If you try hard enough, you could probably buy a handgun and a grenade launcher as well, but in doing so, you would be breaking the law. In order to purchase a firearm of any kind in Switzerland, save for an air gun, you need a Waffenerwerbschien. This document is needed to purchase a gun from a gunshop and is also needed when one is purchasing a gun from a private individual. I know this, because every time that I have tried to purchase a gun, I had to produce a Waffenerwerschien.
Factually incorrect: Read Art. 10 of the federal law on weapons.

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You also state that hunters and collectors will be able to keep their weapons. Given the breadth of the new initiative and the lack of thought that has gone into it, your comment is not 100% correct. Only bona Fidel hunters will escape serious restriction. Collectors, weekend shooters and fun gunners could fin themselves completely disenfranchised in the worst possible case.
So, your line of argumentation is that the federal parliament, which made the existing law you apparently are fine with, would totally change its position and make a law that is much more restrictive than the one it made before.

Art. 8 of the federal law allready states that those who want to obtain a permission to buy a gun (Waffenerwerbsschein) but are not hunters, collectors or sports shooters have to specify their reason for applying for the permit.

It all boils down to this: Despite your assurance that only trained people should have guns, you do want people without proper training to have guns.

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"Huhh..............."

  #598  
Old 31.01.2011, 10:07
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Sam

Whether the register is kept in Bern centrally or regionally on a Kantonal basis is neither here nor there. My point is that the register, as it currently stands is incomplete.

As for Artical 10 with regards to firearms purchases, perhaps you could be so kind as to print the text. In addition, then you can explain to me as to how one can purchase a firearms legally without a Waffenerwerschien? Have you ever bought a gun,specifically in the last two years?

I don`t do smileys etc..............

It is all well and good referring to specific articles; it gives you a certain degree of smugness. But the reference means nothing unless you quote it. You cannot simply repudiate my argument by referring to an Art. etc!

It would appear to me that you are just anti gun, for whatever reason and overly argumentative to boot.............
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Old 31.01.2011, 10:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Connor
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Whether the register is kept in Bern centrally or regionally on a Kantonal basis is neither here nor there. My point is that the register, as it currently stands is incomplete.
You were implying that the scope of a federal register would be much broarder than the one of the current register. If the parliament wants to widen the scope, it can do so, initiative or no not. That was my point.


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As for Artical 10 with regards to firearms purchases, perhaps you could be so kind as to print the text. In addition, then you can explain to me as to how one can purchase a firearms legally without a Waffenerwerschien? Have you ever bought a gun,specifically in the last two years?
I don't have an official translation, sorry

Art. 101 Ausnahmen von der Waffenerwerbsscheinspflicht

1 Folgende Waffen sowie ihre wesentlichen Bestandteile dürfen ohne Waffenerwerbsschein erworben werden:

a.einschüssige und mehrläufige Jagdgewehre sowie Nachbildungen von einschüssigen Vorderladern;
b.vom Bundesrat bezeichnete Handrepetiergewehre, die im ausserdienstlichen und sportlichen Schiesswesen der nach dem Militärgesetz vom 3. Februar 19952 anerkannten Schiessvereine sowie für Jagdzwecke im Inland üblicherweise verwendet werden;
c.einschüssige Kaninchentöter;
d.Druckluft- und CO2-Waffen, die eine Mündungsenergie von mindestens 7,5 Joule entwickeln oder aufgrund ihres Aussehens mit echten Feuerwaffen verwechselt werden können;
e.Imitations-, Schreckschuss- und Soft-Air-Waffen, die aufgrund ihres Aussehens mit echten Feuerwaffen verwechselt werden können.

32 Der Bundesrat kann weitere Ausnahmen festlegen oder den Geltungsbereich von Absatz 1 für ausländische Staatsangehörige ohne Niederlassungsbewilligung in der Schweiz einschränken.

I don't mind letters c-e, but letters a and b should be changed and it can be changed, as hunters and sportsmen should (almost always do) fullfill the criteria to obtain a permission.

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It is all well and good referring to specific articles; it gives you a certain degree of smugness. But the reference means nothing unless you quote it. You cannot simply repudiate my argument by referring to an Art. etc!
Errrr... methinks that laws are actually quite important when people have discussions about laws.

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It would appear to me that you are just anti gun, for whatever reason and overly argumentative to boot.............

Ad hominem, and no, you are wrong: I don't mind people having guns, under the following conditions:
  1. They are trained (and can prove it).
  2. They have a legit reason, such as hunting, sports or collecting.
  3. They have a clean criminal record (not given with art. 10)
And no, the government should not subsidize gun ownership by giving away (modified) assault rifles almost for free.
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Old 31.01.2011, 11:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Connor


You were implying that the scope of a federal register would be much broarder than the one of the current register. If the parliament wants to widen the scope, it can do so, initiative or no not. That was my point.




I don't have an official translation, sorry

Art. 101 Ausnahmen von der Waffenerwerbsscheinspflicht

1 Folgende Waffen sowie ihre wesentlichen Bestandteile dürfen ohne Waffenerwerbsschein erworben werden:

a.einschüssige und mehrläufige Jagdgewehre sowie Nachbildungen von einschüssigen Vorderladern;
b.vom Bundesrat bezeichnete Handrepetiergewehre, die im ausserdienstlichen und sportlichen Schiesswesen der nach dem Militärgesetz vom 3. Februar 19952 anerkannten Schiessvereine sowie für Jagdzwecke im Inland üblicherweise verwendet werden;
c.einschüssige Kaninchentöter;
d.Druckluft- und CO2-Waffen, die eine Mündungsenergie von mindestens 7,5 Joule entwickeln oder aufgrund ihres Aussehens mit echten Feuerwaffen verwechselt werden können;
e.Imitations-, Schreckschuss- und Soft-Air-Waffen, die aufgrund ihres Aussehens mit echten Feuerwaffen verwechselt werden können.

32 Der Bundesrat kann weitere Ausnahmen festlegen oder den Geltungsbereich von Absatz 1 für ausländische Staatsangehörige ohne Niederlassungsbewilligung in der Schweiz einschränken.

I don't mind letters c-e, but letters a and b should be changed and it can be changed, as hunters and sportsmen should (almost always do) fullfill the criteria to obtain a permission.



Errrr... methinks that laws are actually quite important when people have discussions about laws.






Ad hominem, and no, you are wrong: I don't mind people having guns, under the following conditions:
  1. They are trained (and can prove it).
  2. They have a legit reason, such as hunting, sports or collecting.
  3. They have a clean criminal record (not given with art. 10)
And no, the government should not subsidize gun ownership by giving away (modified) assault rifles almost for free.

Attack ad hominem? Where? I merely pointed out your smugness......

The Swiss have a long history of gun ownership. All men who have completed military service are trained in the use of guns. Hunters are required to undergo suitable training as well. In essence, people who use firearms are trained.

As for collectors, what training do you need? Lets assume that collectors just collect, that is, they do not shoot their guns, but rather hang them on the wall of their vault. What special training do you suggest? Even if they do shoot them, the fact that they have an interest in firearms would suggest to me that they know how to use them responsibly. Given your wealth of knowledge on all things firearms related, especially legislation and the inherent danger in owning a gun, perhaps you can tell me the number of injuries and deaths related to the misuse of legally held firearms.

I maintain that a Waffenerwerbschien is needed to purchase a firearm. Firstly the applicant has to apply for a Strafregister. As long as that is clear, that is, the applicant has no criminal record, he or she can apply for a Waffenerwerbschien. On the applicant`s first application for a Waffener.....they will be invited to attend for interview with the firearms licensing department of the police. If the applicant is deemed suitable, the license will be granted.

Having gone through the loops and hoops, I know what I am talking about. I am a legally registered firearm holder with a penchant for hunting and shooting. That is how I was raised and I hope that my children will express an interest in fishing and shooting as well but I will respect them all the same if country sports do no not grab them.

Unfortunately firearms and their ownership is a terribly emotive subject. I know people who are fiercely anti gun because a relative or a friend used a gun to commit suicide. That is pretty irrational thinking in my opinion. I had a cousin who was murdered in the Middle East several years ago; he was shot by terrorist with an AK47. His parents in their grief blame Bush, Blair and the AK47; I hold thê terrorist responsible.

No more smileys and "Methinks".............
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