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Old 31.01.2011, 17:44
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Try reading your article rather than just the headline and the answer is clear.
  #622  
Old 31.01.2011, 17:46
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

The target is always woman who are easy to go with these sort of initiatives this has all happened in other countries... I keep saying open your eyes....

Don't let these things happen here...

Swiss is what it is because of fear's outside Swiss...
once this changes you open the door to Criminals...

Swiss will never be the same...

going to go down the drain as one of the last western coutries with such a system
  #623  
Old 31.01.2011, 18:04
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Story behind the original petition indicating family murders (e.g. Rey-Bellet)

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials...ml?cid=5454650

Poster used by Annabelle magazine


Last edited by vwild1; 01.02.2011 at 10:36. Reason: fixed broken link
  #624  
Old 31.01.2011, 18:06
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I believe your link is broken.

I do like the quote from this article on the site though and think that it is good point for people to think about.
Quote:
According to a recent study of four cantons, family murders account for more than half of all homicides – a rate three times higher than in the United States.
Most probably because the crime rates are so rediculously low here compared to gang killings in the US?

Last edited by colinwheeler; 31.01.2011 at 18:12. Reason: Added Link
  #625  
Old 31.01.2011, 18:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

With working link. Sorry.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials...ml?cid=5454650
  #626  
Old 31.01.2011, 18:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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What sense of security? Guns and ammunition already need to be kept seperate, most swiss just put their army gun in the basement. No one carries them around for protection and I don't think I've heard of a single incident here of a civilian defending their home or themselves against armed criminals with a firearm. Isn't that an illusion of security? Guns currently don't seem to offer any protection whatsoever to your average joe.

Case in point; you hit the nail on its head.

It is for this very reason that there is no burglary in Switzerland. It is well accepted that most households in Switzerland contain firearms and that atleast one person is trained in their use. But the law as its stands denies a person the right to revert to armed defence in the case of a burglary. However, my feeling is that burglars just wont take the risk. As for Concealed Carry, yes it is permitted in Switzerand. It is not easy to obtain but if a person can demonstrate the real need for a concealed weapon for self defence, a license will will be issued. I have no interest in carrying a weapon, save for when I go to the range or stalking.

So the facts as they stand at the moment are:

Switzerland has a high gun ownership.
Crime in Switzerland in general is very low.

I doubt there is a linear correlation between the two statements above but I would wager a considerable sum that once gun ownership is severly curtailed, crime numbers will escalate........go figure.

Given the hoops that I had to jump through, both here, Ireland and the Uk to get my Gun Licenses, I would consider myself more responsible than most and that I am trusted by the authorities of the countries that I mentioned above to possess a firearm. The last thing that I want to see is a left wing backed initiative to deprive me of my right to shoot.

Regards
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  #627  
Old 31.01.2011, 18:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I hear all the arguments here but the one thing that is lacking for me is this.

If somebody can prove that prohibition works, please do.

I have always found that education and solving root issues is much more successful than prohibiting symtomatic behaviour. Protecting people's rights to do what they want to do is important and protecting people's rights to defend themselves is also important.
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Old 31.01.2011, 18:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Case in point; you hit the nail on its head.

It is for this very reason that there is no burglary in Switzerland. It is well accepted that most households in Switzerland contain firearms and that atleast one person is trained in their use. But the law as its stands denies a person the right to revert to armed defence in the case of a burglary. However, my feeling is that burglars just wont take the risk. As for Concealed Carry, yes it is permitted in Switzerand. It is not easy to obtain but if a person can demonstrate the real need for a concealed weapon for self defence, a license will will be issued. I have no interest in carrying a weapon, save for when I go to the range or stalking.

So the facts as they stand at the moment are:

Switzerland has a high gun ownership.
Crime in Switzerland in general is very low.

I doubt there is a linear correlation between the two statements above but I would wager a considerable sum that once gun ownership is severly curtailed, crime numbers will escalate........go figure.

Given the hoops that I had to jump through, both here, Ireland and the Uk to get my Gun Licenses, I would consider myself more responsible than most and that I am trusted by the authorities of the countries that I mentioned above to possess a firearm. The last thing that I want to see is a left wing backed initiative to deprive me of my right to shoot.

Regards
Are you being deprived of the right to shoot? You will still be allowed.

I would say the biggest reason for low burglaries in Switzerland is the fact they like to live in flats. As in most places, burglars prefer empty homes with quiet and discrete access. It adds extra risk carrying your loot down the shared corridor where anyone might look out and wonder what you're doing, it's not like the Swiss have a reputation for minding their own business when it comes to the neighbours.

I have no idea why people think crime will increase, crims will be just as reluctant to use firearms as before, we already know the general populace is unarmed while walking about town.

Last edited by cyrus; 31.01.2011 at 19:07.
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  #629  
Old 31.01.2011, 19:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Are you being deprived of the right to shoot? You will still be allowed.

I would say the biggest reason for low burglaries in Switzerland is the fact they like to live in flats. As in most places, burglars prefer empty homes with quiet and discrete access. It adds extra risk carrying your loot down the shared corridor where anyone might look out and wonder what you're doing, it's not like the Swiss have a reputation for minding their own business when it comes to the neighbours.

I have no idea why people think crime will increase, crims will be just as reluctant to use firearms as before, we already know the general populace is unarmed while walking about town.

This is only an iniative. Nobody knows what exactly the legislation will entail. I would not be surprised if my right to shoot was taken away from me and as an Auslander, I feel that I will have very little right of redress.

I wont sell my guns yet, but I shall repatriate some to different countries if the initiative is approved; I will sell the rest or surrender them.
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  #630  
Old 31.01.2011, 19:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I have no idea why people think crime will increase, crims will be just as reluctant to use firearms as before, we already know the general populace is unarmed while walking about town.
Likewise, I have no idea why people think that crime will decrease. People will still find ways to kill eachother or themselves.
  #631  
Old 31.01.2011, 19:29
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Likewise, I have no idea why people think that crime will decrease. People will still find ways to kill eachother or themselves.
But they do think it will reduce the murder suicide rate, the purpose of the initiative, it's pretty hard to argue against that. It will reduce it.
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Old 31.01.2011, 19:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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But they do think it will reduce the murder suicide rate, the purpose of the initiative, it's pretty hard to argue against that. It will reduce it.
No, it's not hard to argue against that. We are doing exactly that right here. I have lived in countries that have increased controls over firearms and in none of those cases has it actually been shown to have been a significant factor in decreasing murder or suicide rates. So, nope, I seriously don't believe that there is a significant enough basis of good information to demonstrate to me that it would actually. Do you have one?
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Old 31.01.2011, 19:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Crime will increase this has been demonstrated in countries that have started this way with the control and eventual ban.

Crims will know that the weapons are gone, and you become easy pickings.

Crims are affraid that you could use the weapon. they know almost all households in Swiss have a gun. this is why its still safe here.

its a mentality thing, Attitude... Crims are chickens, they like easy pickings.
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Old 31.01.2011, 19:40
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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No, it's not hard to argue against that. We are doing exactly that right here. I have lived in countries that have increased controls over firearms and in none of those cases has it actually been shown to have been a significant factor in decreasing murder or suicide rates. So, nope, I seriously don't believe that there is a significant enough basis of good information to demonstrate to me that it would actually. Do you have one?
It's not murder or suicide the initiative is concerned with, it is the specific case of murder suicides, where a family member kills members of their family, usually with a firearm, then themselves.
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Old 31.01.2011, 20:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It's not murder or suicide the initiative is concerned with, it is the specific case of murder suicides, where a family member kills members of their family, usually with a firearm, then themselves.
Sorry, you are correct on that one. I still don't think that these specific incidences were reduced in countries that increased gun control.
I liked Finland's take on the whole thing. More education.
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  #636  
Old 31.01.2011, 20:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Removing the weapons is not the solution, as above its education.

Removing the weapons will only increase incidents in other directions.
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Old 01.02.2011, 00:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You can never get rid of the guns in the world. wake up its reality.

you are making it safer only for criminals. as crime will increase with the guns out of the homes...

It's foreign mentality, the criminals are scared of the Swiss because they have these guns at home.

be prepared to employ many more police, and a huge increase in taxes, due to your stupidity and blindness...
hääää ? Criminals scared of "the Swiss" because people have weapons at home , weapons not to be used for a variety of reasons

safety and security here are not secured by people having some weapon at home but already now by police
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Old 01.02.2011, 00:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Case in point; you hit the nail on its head.

It is for this very reason that there is no burglary in Switzerland. It is well accepted that most households in Switzerland contain firearms and that atleast one person is trained in their use. But the law as its stands denies a person the right to revert to armed defence in the case of a burglary. However, my feeling is that burglars just wont take the risk. As for Concealed Carry, yes it is permitted in Switzerand. It is not easy to obtain but if a person can demonstrate the real need for a concealed weapon for self defence, a license will will be issued. I have no interest in carrying a weapon, save for when I go to the range or stalking.

So the facts as they stand at the moment are:

Switzerland has a high gun ownership.
Crime in Switzerland in general is very low.

I doubt there is a linear correlation between the two statements above but I would wager a considerable sum that once gun ownership is severly curtailed, crime numbers will escalate........go figure.

Given the hoops that I had to jump through, both here, Ireland and the Uk to get my Gun Licenses, I would consider myself more responsible than most and that I am trusted by the authorities of the countries that I mentioned above to possess a firearm. The last thing that I want to see is a left wing backed initiative to deprive me of my right to shoot.

Regards
Burglary in Switzerland is relatively high ! And that there is a chance to get a weapon even is making burglary more profitable ! At home, we for a few years even had two military guns at home (family of 4) ! but in case of need would first of all not have the weapon at hand and second would not have had ammunition at our disposal, and third most likely would have been elsewhere ! So that the two guns in case of a burglary would have been something in favour of the burglar

your right to shoot ? Join a shooting club or a hunting club !
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  #639  
Old 01.02.2011, 00:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This is only an iniative. Nobody knows what exactly the legislation will entail. I would not be surprised if my right to shoot was taken away from me and as an Auslander, I feel that I will have very little right of redress.

I wont sell my guns yet, but I shall repatriate some to different countries if the initiative is approved; I will sell the rest or surrender them.
It is quite the other way round. The Initiative will NOT become stricter when passing through parliament but get watered down. The final legislation will NOT contain more restrictions than the initiative but less.
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Old 01.02.2011, 00:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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A) Crims will know that the weapons are gone, and you become easy pickings.

A-2) Crims are affraid that you could use the weapon. they know almost all households in Swiss have a gun. this is why its still safe here.

B) its a mentality thing, Attitude... Crims are chickens, they like easy pickings.
A) the weapons around were no problem for the criminals in the past
A-2) criminals never were afraid of this as the guns in question were not in a position to be used really, as you cannot use a gun without ammunition
B) easy pickings are isolated houses, while buildings with 20 to 23 apartments are not what is nice to them
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