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Old 10.01.2011, 14:11
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

http://www.spruce.ca/gunctrl.htm
And here is the a Canadian jock
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...cide-rate.html
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

i find this referendum a very interesting example of how values change.

a generation or so ago, the swiss seemed to include their military model as a part of their unique swissness, their national identity and pride. Now almost everyone i know either did everything they could to get out of it and were so happy to give up their stuff and leave the obligation. the kids i see in the HB on fridays trudging off to their units with their biber haircuts earrings and ipods hardly seem happy to be going about their business.

seems like the post cold war european peace has helped homogenize western european values.

its interesting the demographics on the vote, too: the rural cantons are more against it than the urban ones, just like is the case in all places with large amounts of guns.
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This need a explanation
It's the young girl who was killed in the Tucson shooting.
  #64  
Old 10.01.2011, 14:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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seems like the post cold war european peace has helped homogenize western european values.
the peace the Swiss proudly fought for....oh....wait....
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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From what I can gather, this Law is not about criminals, but about suicide, domestic and accidental shootings and the danger of kids/teenagers getting access to said guns. Since when does saying to kids 'thou shalt not' works?
Plenty of kids commit suicide in a number of different ways, including dropping off of bridges, overdosing on drugs, cutting their wrists, and getting in front of moving trains. How does the initiative address these?
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:24
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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We parked at our local ski slopes about 15 years ago- the car-park is next to a barrack occasionally used for army recruits. After unloading, and as we were walking to the lifts, our youngest daughter noticed a gun against the wall next to the car-park. It was a machine gun with a fully loaded 'cartouche'. I went to the door of the barracks and explained and the soldier said 'Of f*** wondered where I'd left it!'.
Which shows how casual some are about their guns here.

From what I can gather, this Law is not about criminals, but about suicide, domestic and accidental shootings and the danger of kids/teenagers getting access to said guns. Since when does saying to kids 'thou shalt not' works?
What makes you think it was fully loaded?
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:29
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Well if the YES vote win, there is always this,

http://www.photoblivion.com/1990/09/...ampaign=wahoha

.
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:29
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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What makes you think it was fully loaded?
Probably because it had a cartouche under it? (that's a box with a belt that feeds into the gun - so even I could tell if it is loaded)

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Old 10.01.2011, 14:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Plenty of kids commit suicide in a number of different ways, including dropping off of bridges, overdosing on drugs, cutting their wrists, and getting in front of moving trains. How does the initiative address these?
It doesn't. It simply removes one method of suicide, and method most often used when taking ones entire family with them.
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It doesn't. It simply removes one method of suicide, and method most often used when taking ones entire family with them.
How often does that happen in Switzerland? Like I said, can we get some real numbers here with an appropriate breakdown or are we willing to make blanket laws based on a single tragic occurrance? Why aren't cars and smoking being banned, since they result in far more deaths per year?
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:43
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The weapon's important too. I'm sure that in the UK if guns were legalised you'd see a rise in violence.
sure, thats coz you dont have a tradition of firearm ownership in the UK the way you do here or in rural north american areas.

im from the US in a blue, urban, liberal area which has values more or less comparable to the average brit or german when it comes to guns: "why would you ever want one" "ive never fired one" "i think they should very tightly controlled".

my father lives in a rural conservative part of the country where hunting and firearm ownership are very prolific. he has one in his car, has his concealed carry permit, and is by blue urban liberal standards a total conservative right wing fascist douche.

however, despite the fact that where i lived has lots of gun restrictions, the gangs in oakland and other poor parts of the bay area kill eachother left and right and occaisionally take out innocent passers by and kill police officers, etc.

where my dad lives, with everyone armed to the teeth, and there's no crime. His gun control hating buddies like to point this out, and try to build the case that the relationship to firearm ownership is causal. I personally believe its coincidental.

You have homogenous, wealthy, prosperous communities, and even if they have loads of guns you dont have gun crime (sound like any alpine confederation you might know?), because you dont have the same desperate people that you have in urban areas with high variances in income distribution, employment, access to services, good education, extreme population density etc.

I guess my rather long winded point is: if the swiss want to do away with their tradition of having their stgw90s at home, then fine, vote it out. Say it reflects a change in Swiss values and are aligning to a "european norm", say it reflects a change in the Swiss military's attitude about mobilisation and changing attitudes towards future threats, or something like that.

But these arguments of how it will reduce suicides and crime and stuff seem BS to me, as those things will happen whether or not the person has access to a firearm.
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:50
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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sure, thats coz you dont have a tradition of firearm ownership in the UK the way you do here or in rural north american areas.

im from the US in a blue, urban, liberal area which has values more or less comparable to the average brit or german when it comes to guns: "why would you ever want one" "ive never fired one" "i think they should very tightly controlled".

my father lives in a rural conservative part of the country where hunting and firearm ownership are very prolific. he has one in his car, has his concealed carry permit, and is by blue urban liberal standards a total conservative right wing fascist douche.

however, despite the fact that where i lived has lots of gun restrictions, the gangs in oakland and other poor parts of the bay area kill eachother left and right and occaisionally take out innocent passers by and kill police officers, etc.

where my dad lives, with everyone armed to the teeth, and there's no crime. His gun control hating buddies like to point this out, and try to build the case that the relationship to firearm ownership is causal. I personally believe its coincidental.

You have homogenous, wealthy, prosperous communities, and even if they have loads of guns you dont have gun crime (sound like any alpine confederation you might know?), because you dont have the same desperate people that you have in urban areas with high variances in income distribution, employment, access to services, good education, extreme population density etc.

I guess my rather long winded point is: if the swiss want to do away with their tradition of having their stgw90s at home, then fine, vote it out. Say it reflects a change in Swiss values and are aligning to a "european norm", say it reflects a change in the Swiss military's attitude about mobilisation and changing attitudes towards future threats, or something like that.

But these arguments of how it will reduce suicides and crime and stuff seem BS to me, as those things will happen whether or not the person has access to a firearm.
I definitely think there would be a reduction in violent crime in America if guns became less available. I can see a justification for hunting rifles. I can't see any justification for private assault rifle or handgun ownership.

In my first post on this thread I said that I didn't think gun crime was a major problem in Switzerland. As you say there is a culture of responsible ownership here. Nevertheless there's no real need to keep a military weapon at home in this day and age and it's possible that at least one life might be saved.
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:52
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

from that article:

Police reported 610 homicides in Canada during 2009, one fewer than the previous year, according to the federal agency. Of those, 179 were committed by firearms, 21 fewer than in 2008 and a 12 per cent decline.

Lol!
only 600 homicides in the whole country? not bad! I think some of the american cities with the highest rates are close to that on their own (Detroit, Baltimore, Oakland...)

Funny that manitoba and saskatchewan recorded the highest "rate". I guess when your provinces only have about 8 people in them if one of them gets bumped off it hurts the overall rate.
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Old 10.01.2011, 14:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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sure, thats coz you dont have a tradition of firearm ownership in the UK the way you do here or in rural north american areas.
I do not know any other place on this planet that has the tradition to have military rifles at home and make a shooting competition for children with them... it is part of the very organized military tradition rather than a personal freedom. So yes, Switzerland is unique in that perspective and very different from the US sense of "it is my constitutional right to carry a gun".

Saying that England has no tradition in firearms makes me wonder if you have ever been outside of the greater London area? Any idea how popular hunting is in England? And they make very nice shotguns...
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Old 10.01.2011, 15:00
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I definitely think there would be a reduction in violent crime in America if guns became less available. I can see a justification for hunting rifles. I can't see any justification for private assault rifle or handgun ownership.

In my first post on this thread I said that I didn't think gun crime was a major problem in Switzerland. As you say there is a culture of responsible ownership here. Nevertheless there's no real need to keep a military weapon at home in this day and age and it's possible that at least one life might be saved.

re: first statement: oh no question. the question is, though, the country has soooo many guns and continues to make and import them in vast quantities, how could one ever pragmatically get rid of them? Additionally, and i hate conceding this rhetorical point to the politically vocal side of the pro-gun debate, its in the constitution that you cant infringe on the right to arm bears. Bear arms. Whatever. As such, it seems to me like its a problem the US is just going to be chronically stuck with.

re: second statement: well, it would seem that 45% of the swiss agree with you! the referendum will be interesting.
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Old 10.01.2011, 15:00
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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How often does that happen in Switzerland? Like I said, can we get some real numbers here with an appropriate breakdown or are we willing to make blanket laws based on a single tragic occurrance? Why aren't cars and smoking being banned, since they result in far more deaths per year?
Leaving the family murders aside for the moment, this fairly recent article implies that Switzerland has a far greater number of suicides by gun per head of capita than any other European country. If this article is to be believed then it would suggest there are good grounds for this initiative.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials...ml?cid=8301804

Last edited by Slaphead; 10.01.2011 at 15:05. Reason: Clarifying a statement
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Old 10.01.2011, 15:11
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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From what I can gather, this Law is not about criminals, but about suicide, domestic and accidental shootings and the danger of kids/teenagers getting access to said guns. Since when does saying to kids 'thou shalt not' works?
Actually, it can work - has to be done with some care though.

I grew up in a house (not in Switzerland) with quite a few guns, most of them not locked up in fancy gun safes - and we never ever had an accidental discharge, or kids playing with even an unloaded gun. There are rules about guns, see, and Rule #1 is you don't touch them without asking. Rule #2 is that any time you want to touch a gun, you ask Dad and Dad will show it to you and let you hold it (after making a big show of checking that it's unloaded) - maybe even dry-fire it if you're big enough to lift it and strong enough to cock it yourself.

I think that's the key really. Strict rules, yes, but rules with a guaranteed outlet for natural curiosity. As it was I handled every gun in the house - empty, under Dad's matter-of-fact supervision - before I was nine. Watched him shoot all of them at the range, shot a couple myself. Took the mystery and the forbidden spice right out of it and although I enjoyed handling guns (still do), I was never tempted to go play with them on my own.

So it can work... but I think only if the parents are pretty deliberate about teaching it. Coming from a "traditional gun-owning culture" is not enough: I've seen teenagers at the range (again, not in Switzerland) with apparently no concept of proper gun safety... mom&dad were perfectly safe shooters but always with a bit of 'paramilitary' flair, and somehow their kids picked up on this but not on the gun safety bit.
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  #78  
Old 10.01.2011, 15:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Anyway, in former times, the system made perfect sense. The Swiss Army reserves were able to mobilize to the full bunch of about 650'000 troops ('fifties through 'eighties) within 48 hours. Even without a single soldier getting in touch with an army depot, e.g. due to heavy interference from enemy paratroopers, sabotage and the like, there still were about 15 million rounds right where they were meant to be used, namely on the soldier.
I read something in the local paper last week which touched exactly on this point as being the principal driver behind the practice of keeping arms at home. If I remember right, the article said in days gone by when transport links weren't what they are today, when people were far less mobile and when not everybody as on the phone... many communities in Switzerland were fairly isolated. With little or no standing army ready and prepared in barracks, there seemed little alternative but for the militia to keep arms at home in order for them to mobilize quickly and efficiently.

Times have changed, people are more mobile, everywhere is accessible etc etc so the old arguments based on need are being challenged. That leaves the symbol/traditional argument. The referendum will decide whether values have changed.

I can't get wound up about this. We're talking tail risks and whichever way the vote goes, daily life in Switzerland won't be a safer or a more dangerous place to live for me.
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Old 10.01.2011, 15:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Leaving the family murders aside for the moment, this fairly recent article implies that Switzerland has a far greater number of suicides by gun per head of capita than any other European country. If this article is to be believed then it would suggest there are good grounds for this initiative.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials...ml?cid=8301804
only if you think that suicide by guns is worse than any other method or that banning guns would prevent these deaths.
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Old 10.01.2011, 15:18
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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only if you think that suicide by guns is worse than any other method or that banning guns would prevent these deaths.
I do know one person that says that he wouldn't normally consider suicide but if he was in a room with a gun, he would be drawn to it.
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