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Old 06.02.2011, 21:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Vote yes and find out...

Vote no and things will be ok...
  #802  
Old 06.02.2011, 21:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Vote yes and find out...

Vote no and things will be ok...
Crap, cop-out answer.

Try again.
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  #803  
Old 06.02.2011, 21:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I have said this before, now my answer is short...

Time is short

Cannot give more away than this, not now.

This initiative is not where this will end. the only way to stop more and more massive changes in Schweiz is to vote no now.
  #804  
Old 06.02.2011, 21:24
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I have said this before, now my answer is short...

Time is short

Cannot give more away than this, not now.

This initiative is not where this will end. the only way to stop more and more massive changes in Schweiz is to vote no now.
Crap, cop-out answer.

Try again.
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  #805  
Old 06.02.2011, 22:16
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Personally, I have neither the desire nor need to own a gun.

But I will (have, and in in this case, did) vote against any measure that will limit the possibility of my owning one should I change my mind in the future.

Tom
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  #806  
Old 06.02.2011, 23:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Sorry, but that's pure speculation. No one knows yet whether it will be sufficient to be simply a member of a shooting club. Quite likely their will be further requirements.

Governments have a long history of bait and switch. Until the current federal gun law was introduced in the late Nineties, you didn't even need a permit to carry a gun in some cantons. Back then it was promised that people will be able to apply for gun carrying permits if needed. However once the law went into effect it turned out that it was nearly impossible to obtain a carry permit unless someone needed the gun for work. Even applications by people who could prove that they have been threatened repeatedly and wanted a gun for personal protection were turned down.

Or today's Federal Tax (direkte Bundessteuer) was originally introduced as a temporary war tax during WW I. Go figure...!


Congrats, Wolli! Finally you're admitting that the Initiative is utterly useless!

So why vote Yes? Just because you hate the "Obligatorische"?


Speculation again. I strongly doubt that the current concept of the personal weapon will survive once the guns must be stored centrally.

To start at the bottom. The military apparatus will NOT change their ideology just due to a YES to the initiative. And further up, YES I voted YES as I wish that the soldiers no longer have to take that piece home and that their mothers and wifes no longer have to keep parts of their cupboards free just in order to store some piece of largely useless military hardware. Another reason for my YES is that I wish that those lazy "Züghüüslers" get a bit more real work to do
  #807  
Old 06.02.2011, 23:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Australian Gun Law Update

Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts...

From: , A police officer in Australia

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were
forced

By a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be
destroyed by Our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,

Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44
percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now
up
300 percent.

(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.

Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns.' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.
just a very simple and easy direct question : when did the Australian electorate vote about the law you here speak about endlessly ????
  #808  
Old 06.02.2011, 23:53
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Again it comes down to education, removing the weapons is not the solution as this will open the door to people keeping more illegal weapons.

What needs to be addresses is stupid behaviour like keeping a gun in the cuboard or under the bed.. lock them up properly and educate.
The possible YES will NOT "open the door to people keeping more illegal weapons". The conditions will stay exactly the same. The military guns in the homes never were a problem to criminal, but quite to the contrary in case of doubt made burglaries more attractive as Swiss military guns, not of any use to the holders, got nice prices on the black market !
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  #809  
Old 06.02.2011, 23:59
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This innitiative is the second innitiative...

Just wait this is just the beginning...

Just wait and see, you have been warned...
the "second initiative" about what ???
  #810  
Old 07.02.2011, 10:16
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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My forecast is a NO, but I would prefer to have a narrow YES. A heavy YES however would be something I would detest as much as a heavy NO.
My guess is that it will likely follow the usual demographics such as seen in the minaret initiative, the joining-the-UN vote, women-suffrage vote, etc..

It's unpredictable on the popular vote but there will likely be a huge majority YES among the Suisse Romandes. But the initiative will likely fail on the cantonal vote with a huge majority NO among the Aleman cantons.

Did you know that more dinosaurs are found in the Berner Oberland and the Engadine than in the Jura?
  #811  
Old 07.02.2011, 12:06
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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To start at the bottom. The military apparatus will NOT change their ideology just due to a YES to the initiative.
They will probably not change it voluntarily but will be forced to change by the sheer cost and complexity of the central storage of a personal weapon. Besides, if the guns are to be centrally stored and soldiers are no longer allowed to keep the personal gun after the end of their military duty, the concept of a personal weapon just doesn't make sense anymore.
  #812  
Old 07.02.2011, 13:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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But the initiative will likely fail on the cantonal vote with a huge majority NO among the Aleman cantons.
And Ticino.

Tom
  #813  
Old 07.02.2011, 16:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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no no, what is meant is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin had their inspirations from the existing federal structures of 1291-1847 Switzerland and the ideas of Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
I read that they also borrowed heavily from existing federal structures practiced by native americans...

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the main weapon used had been handed in to Melbourne police and officially destroyed, so how did it end up in Tassie?
Chopper Read, maybe? I dunno, you tell me

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Easiest way to kill someone is not with a gun, it is with a car. This is accepted murder...
So why dont the army issue us all with cars instead of purpose made killing machines?

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Those parents still have plenty of knives, hammers and many house utensils that can be used either for torture or for a direct kill.
Bit harder to kill hand to hand than point and squeeze though, innit? Not that I'd know either way, just a guess. Less potential for mass murder, as well - don't remember many multiple school killings being done with a knife

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My neighbour is a great chap, I trust him entirely, and he keeps his guns locked up in a purpose made safe.
How many times have you heard on the news "he seemed like such a nice guy, and lovely neighbour, very quiet, its hard to believe hes done this". Even the neighbours of that guy in Austria who locked his daughters in a cellar and raped them for 17 years didn't suspect...


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In the U.S. the Second Amendment is not so we rednecks can go shoot us some deer. The purpose is so that we may defend ourselves against tyranny.
Go read it again, in full...instead of the oft quoted sub quote taken completely out of context. I believe it states that where free states require a well armed militia to defend themselves....the rights to bear arms shall not be infringed. Written when there was no standing army. I can't see any state in America being threatened with invasion, not really
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  #814  
Old 07.02.2011, 16:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Australian Gun Law Update

Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts...

From: , A police officer in Australia

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were
forced

By a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be
destroyed by Our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,

Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44
percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now
up
300 percent.

(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.

Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns.' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.
Just saw this post, and the one above it where you provide the snopes article as some kind of evidence for your views, it looks like you only read the quoted text from the article (the rumour) and not the text about giving context to the numbers.
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  #815  
Old 07.02.2011, 16:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Australian Gun Law Update

Here's a thought to warm some of your hearts...

From: , A police officer in Australia

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were
forced

By a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be
destroyed by Our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers
more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 6.2 percent,

Australia-wide, assaults are up 9.6 percent;

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44
percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now
up
300 percent.

(Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the
criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
assaults of the elderly, while the resident is at home.

Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public
safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns.' You won't see this on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the State Assembly disseminating this information.
Interesting how a couple of minutes with Google indicates that this is all a complete lie, isn't it.
  #816  
Old 07.02.2011, 17:47
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Yes I can ! You are the one which complained at the ones butting the nose in the swiss affair,wile living several thousand miles away
Never go to Cremana Italy this is what a guy has stored in a old fridge legaley plus a STG57 (not shown)
Actually I didn't. It was someone else.

I have no problem where people are posting from or their nationality or their opinions. I love to hear them all.

Lisa
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  #817  
Old 07.02.2011, 18:03
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And Ticino.

Tom
So there are more dinosaurs in the Lepontine as well.

In the Jura, we have moved on to an advanced state of evolution...
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  #818  
Old 07.02.2011, 18:04
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So there are more dinosaurs in the Lepontine as well.

In the Jura, we have moved on to an advanced state of evolution...
Do you insist on condemning everyone who disagrees with you as a "dinosaur", or do you merely reserve that patronising term for those who wish to preserve their existing rights under the law?
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  #819  
Old 07.02.2011, 18:22
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Do you insist on condemning everyone who disagrees with you as a "dinosaur", or do you merely reserve that patronising term for those who wish to preserve their existing rights under the law?
Chill out guy. All I said was the vote will likely be a NO on the cantonal level and it is likely it will be based on these mountain (or röstigraben) divides. And many romandes will not be happy with that, just as they are not happy with the result of the xenophobic minaret initiative. But of course, we accept it as being a part of our democratic process. But we can still freely express our opinion. If you disagree with the "dinosaur" metaphor (which by the way is pretty minor compared to some other stuff that I have seen here) then you must be pretty sensitive.
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Old 07.02.2011, 18:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Me and my Dad used to play at planning an invasion of the US, a bit like the game 'Risk'. My Dad used to say that if we invaded from the south most of the people would be with us, i.e. being pro-british at heart, so we certainly wouldn't need not take their shooters off them in the process. So, a pincer movement from North (Canada) and South (Florida). Over in a week, Union Flag back on the white house (after we burn it down again of course). Just a joke homeland sec people, honest :-)
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