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  #881  
Old 08.02.2011, 00:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Seriously though, I would vote NO as I don't see it changing people's abilities to own thier own firearm....I just see it changing the way that millitary firearms are dealt with.....or am I completely wrong here?
Again, the point is not "abilities to own firearms" as there are many many ways to own firearms here after a Yes. The point is that in case of a yes the soldiers no longer need to store that piece of military hardware at home for two decades and be responsible for that military scrap, which just takes away space. One of my happiest moments in life was when I could hand over that piece of sh... to an officer in charge

One thing for sure. With opening hours like this
Öffnungszeiten Montag bis Freitag, jeweils 07.30 bis 16.30 Uhr
they cannot conduct business in future in case of a yes !
But will have to be open on Saturdays between 08.30 and 17.30 and nothing less
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  #882  
Old 08.02.2011, 00:36
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Colin, I have seen this excact thing before. it all sounds good and well and gives those who believe a nice warm fuzzy feeling now.

Things will only get worse once they start, this is just the beginning of what is planned.

I am just the messenger, they shoot messengers don't they?
messenger ? Well, I think I still could handle and load a STGW59 and transfer you messenger you into the "eternal hunting grounds"
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  #883  
Old 08.02.2011, 01:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Again, the point is not "abilities to own firearms" as there are many many ways to own firearms here after a Yes.
There wouldn't be "many many" ways but only five as outlined by the initiative:
  • people who need a gun for work (e.g. police officers, security guards)
  • licensed gun dealers
  • licensed shooters
  • licensed hunters
  • collectors
For everyone else it will become strictly illegal to own a gun. End of story.
People who own guns but are not a member of the privileged groups mentioned above or simply cannot prove the "need" for a gun, must be expropriated and several hundred millions of taxpayer money will be wasted for compensation.

It's simply not true that the iniative is just about the storage of the army rifles. If it is approved it will affect everyone who owns a gun or plans to buy one in the future and implementing the initiative will cost huge amounts of tax money.
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  #884  
Old 08.02.2011, 01:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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There wouldn't be "many many" ways but only five as outlined by the initiative:
  • people who need a gun for work (e.g. police officers, security guards)
  • licensed gun dealers
  • licensed shooters
  • licensed hunters
  • collectors
What is the definition of a "licensed shooter" in this context?
  #885  
Old 08.02.2011, 01:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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For everyone else it will become strictly illegal to own a gun.
As I understand about the last law changes here during the Schengen agreement joining you need to look pretty carefully at what the definition of gun is as well as those five ways to own one. Personally I am having a hard time thinking of any other reason that you want to legitimately own a weapon of any sort.
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What is the definition of a "licensed shooter" in this context?
Collector also sounds pretty ambiguous.
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  #886  
Old 08.02.2011, 02:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Dear Switzerland,
Please do me one favor.... Please do not surrender your freedom in my lifetime. It would break my heart to see it, after I have admired and, well let me say it- loved you~ Swiss, for my entire life. I love you. Swiss is the freest country in the world. You have the proudest tradition, the most beautiful country, best and highest quality of life, and the lowest crime/murder rate in the world (both present day and going back 200yrs as well.) Throughout the whole world I can only compare you to Vermont. Swiss and Vermont, two places which "just coincidently" combine very high levels of personal firearms ownership of citizens, and high levels of civilized culture, that is to say- pleasant living.

If you give in the the lies of the "gun-banners" the "anti-gun" socialists/communists, you will follow the sad path of Britain: first it starts off with "reasonable restrictions" and "licensing." "Nobody's going to take your hunting rifle." All lies, look at Britain as I mentioned and Australia, both countries with one restriction after another, until they are hardly "allowed" to own a single shot pellet gun. The fact that crime rates in England shot up, after the guns were banned and the slaves made helpless, seems not to matter, after all, since reducing crime isn't even the point, it's ending your freedom and making you slaves, that's the point. Please don't do it Swiss.

And Swiss Ladies, how can you betray your men and your own freedom? It is only because of your Swiss fathers and grandfathers, and their all-important Swiss guns, that your mothers and grandmothers, and maybe even some reading (I hope) were not subject to the depredations and slaughter of WW1 and WW2. Keep in mind that both Hitler and Stalin's armies, while they were invading and slaughtering and being slaughtered by all your neighbors, both tyrants kept well clear of your Swiss fathers each with his own personal "assault weapon". Why? That old rifle in your Grandfather's closet, which hopefully you own now, put the fear of God in Hitler and Stalin. Madmen? Neither one was crazy enough to try to invade (let's say-- "way too heavily) armed" Switzerland.

They will be there to protect you from the next invader- Some unknown future despot? Present day USAF next victim maybe? Just let them stay free and armed at all times. Or would you rather like to see Zurich be the next Belgrade? The next Bagdad or Afgan? Just go ahead and disarm your men and see what happens. Yugoslavia had an "army." Lot of good that did. Slave armies are only marginally useful, their purpose is not national defense anyway, but to serve their masters, and enslave the people ala Russia.

I have heard this- "The Swiss don't 'have' an army, the Swiss 'are' an army."

I could go on and on ... but I will let the better man speak for me:

"Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death." Gen Henri Guisan July 1940
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  #887  
Old 08.02.2011, 03:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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blah - blah -blah


I think you've confused yer @rse and yer mouth



How long before Mr NRA joins EF, and chips in his 2cents, I wonder


Last edited by weejeem; 08.02.2011 at 03:23.
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  #888  
Old 08.02.2011, 06:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Dear Switzerland,
Please do me one favor.... Please do not surrender your freedom in my lifetime. It would break my heart to see it, after I have admired and, well let me say it- loved you~ Swiss, for my entire life. I love you. Swiss is the freest country in the world. You have the proudest tradition, the most beautiful country, best and highest quality of life, and the lowest crime/murder rate in the world (both present day and going back 200yrs as well.) Throughout the whole world I can only compare you to Vermont. Swiss and Vermont, two places which "just coincidently" combine very high levels of personal firearms ownership of citizens, and high levels of civilized culture, that is to say- pleasant living.

If you give in the the lies of the "gun-banners" the "anti-gun" socialists/communists, you will follow the sad path of Britain: first it starts off with "reasonable restrictions" and "licensing." "Nobody's going to take your hunting rifle." All lies, look at Britain as I mentioned and Australia, both countries with one restriction after another, until they are hardly "allowed" to own a single shot pellet gun. The fact that crime rates in England shot up, after the guns were banned and the slaves made helpless, seems not to matter, after all, since reducing crime isn't even the point, it's ending your freedom and making you slaves, that's the point. Please don't do it Swiss.

And Swiss Ladies, how can you betray your men and your own freedom? It is only because of your Swiss fathers and grandfathers, and their all-important Swiss guns, that your mothers and grandmothers, and maybe even some reading (I hope) were not subject to the depredations and slaughter of WW1 and WW2. Keep in mind that both Hitler and Stalin's armies, while they were invading and slaughtering and being slaughtered by all your neighbors, both tyrants kept well clear of your Swiss fathers each with his own personal "assault weapon". Why? That old rifle in your Grandfather's closet, which hopefully you own now, put the fear of God in Hitler and Stalin. Madmen? Neither one was crazy enough to try to invade (let's say-- "way too heavily) armed" Switzerland.

They will be there to protect you from the next invader- Some unknown future despot? Present day USAF next victim maybe? Just let them stay free and armed at all times. Or would you rather like to see Zurich be the next Belgrade? The next Bagdad or Afgan? Just go ahead and disarm your men and see what happens. Yugoslavia had an "army." Lot of good that did. Slave armies are only marginally useful, their purpose is not national defense anyway, but to serve their masters, and enslave the people ala Russia.

I have heard this- "The Swiss don't 'have' an army, the Swiss 'are' an army."

I could go on and on ... but I will let the better man speak for me:

"Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death." Gen Henri Guisan July 1940
Old Fox news?

Quote:
After the Battle of France, Germany found documents proving that Guisan had been secretly making military preparations with France, despite Swiss neutrality.[4]
Wikipedia

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  #889  
Old 08.02.2011, 07:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I could go on and on ... but I will let the better man speak for me:

"Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death." Gen Henri Guisan July 1940
I thought he said: "The mountains are that way: run!!!!! ... oh, and don't forget the gold..."

  #890  
Old 08.02.2011, 07:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Dear Switzerland,
Please do me one favor.... Please do not surrender your freedom in my lifetime. It would break my heart to see it, after I have admired and, well let me say it- loved you~ Swiss, for my entire life. I love you. Swiss is the freest country in the world. You have the proudest tradition, the most beautiful country, best and highest quality of life, and the lowest crime/murder rate in the world (both present day and going back 200yrs as well.) Throughout the whole world I can only compare you to Vermont. Swiss and Vermont, two places which "just coincidently" combine very high levels of personal firearms ownership of citizens, and high levels of civilized culture, that is to say- pleasant living.
Oh dear oh dear, the Vermont myth. Sorry to break it to you, OldFox, but we have heavy social controls, high population density, universal health care, strong tradition of valuing communal harmony more than individual liberty, etc etc. Practically and culturally speaking, we are much more Massachusetts than Vermont.

Having said that, it is more like Vermont than it is like Texas - which is the other comparison American conservatives usually come up with! I hope you get a chance to visit here sometime, if you haven't already.
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  #891  
Old 08.02.2011, 08:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I really think that the 2nd amendment right to bear arms is outdated. There are some armed militias in the US-all crackpots!

The ' bearing arms for one's country' thing comes from a time when the military relied on guns, but now if a stronger country or government wanted to use its full force to conquer you, then guns won't be much good.
Isn't there some statistic somewhere about how long it would take the Swiss army to be over powered by a leading world power? Look at Egypt and the size of its military, if they wanted to squash the demonstrations they could, easily. Guns would not be much of a barrier, we are not in the Wild Bill Hickock West days anymore.

The only thing that I would say is that at least the Swiss military are trained in the use of weapons, unlike most hip-shooting Americans. So they are less likely to hit unintended targets.
  #892  
Old 08.02.2011, 08:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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messenger ? Well, I think I still could handle and load a STGW59 and transfer you messenger you into the "eternal hunting grounds"
Err, eep!

I wasn't quite expecting that.

Just goes to show, one should never make assumptions...


Just remember Wolli, we've always liked you...
  #893  
Old 08.02.2011, 08:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Dear Switzerland,
Snip... Blah, blah, etc.


Where is the country, Swiss, that you speak of with so little knowledge of history or society?

Plus, in one post, you have embarrassed almost every yank on this forum.
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  #894  
Old 08.02.2011, 09:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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That old rifle in your Grandfather's closet, which hopefully you own now, put the fear of God in Hitler and Stalin. Madmen? Neither one was crazy enough to try to invade (let's say-- "way too heavily) armed" Switzerland.
Yep, I always thought that Napoleon had more guts than those two bastards combined.

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Just let them stay free and armed at all times. Or would you rather like to see Zurich be the next Belgrade? The next Bagdad or Afgan?
I never thought that lack of guns had been the key problem in Serbia, Iraq or Afghanistan. And, btw, their capital is called Kabul.
  #895  
Old 08.02.2011, 09:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Hoppe mentioned-- Fox news?

lol that's a good one Hoppy. If Swiss readers don't know, FOX is a USA TV network, with also news programming, of a mind-numbing propagandistic nature, leaving the viewers generally dribbling and sometimes regurgitating jingoistic Phrases cheerleading for wars and military aggression, among other distasteful pursuits, if they listen too long. (I recommend avoiding it at all costs. Same for other US propaganda outlets CNN, NBC, ABC NYT etc)


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After the Battle of France, Germany found documents proving that Guisan had been secretly making military preparations with France, despite Swiss neutrality.[4]

Heh, heh, a sly old fox was he not? Great link- Can you link to the English transcript for that speech? my German is pitiful sorry.


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Oh dear oh dear, the Vermont myth. Sorry to break it to you, OldFox, but we have heavy social controls, high population density, universal health care, strong tradition of valuing communal harmony more than individual liberty, etc etc. Practically and culturally speaking, we are much more Massachusetts than Vermont.
I'm OK with ~most of?~ what you just said Pythagorias, except the Massachusetts part. Do your Senators drown their mistresses, and get away with it and get re-elected forever? If no, then you aren't like Mass. And universal health care works, if you don't have free-riders, (imagine having half the population of Mexico, in say Zurich, do you think "health care" would work for Swiss under those conditions?) And "communal harmony" .. aren't you kind of repeating what I said about Swiss and Vermont. I recall saying something about civilized living and pleasant living?
We agree.

And by "heavy social controls" .. do your police bash your head in and taser (electrocute/shock, sometimes resulting in death) you for fun after a "traffic stop?" Do your police shoot 13 year old boys in the back, live ammo, resulting in death, no punishment of course? I recall the police in Mass shooting a young (unarmed, peaceful) woman to death in the streets. Has that ever happened in Bern? If no, you have no "heavy social controls." You don't know what "heavy social controls" are because you live in the freest country in the world. Please don't ever change. I love Switzerland!

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Having said that, it is more like Vermont than it is like Texas - which is the other comparison American conservatives usually come up with! I hope you get a chance to visit here sometime, if you haven't already.
Funny that you mention Texas, but I'm not an American conservative. I'm a classical liberal French/German, who was accidentally born far from where I was supposed to be born (Switzerland). There was a mix-up. I have been through the Austrian alps, so I think I got a taste of the local scenery, and can imagine what Swiss is like. And I wish I was there now alas....
  #896  
Old 08.02.2011, 09:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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In the Jura, we have moved on to an advanced state of evolution...
Known as Jurassic Park!

Tom
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  #897  
Old 08.02.2011, 09:43
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why? That old rifle in your Grandfather's closet, which hopefully you own now, put the fear of God in Hitler and Stalin. Madmen? Neither one was crazy enough to try to invade (let's say-- "way too heavily) armed" Switzerland.

When will those closet rifles finally come out?
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Old 08.02.2011, 09:44
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Fixed that for you.
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I'm a classical liberal French/German, who was accidentally born far from where I was supposed to be born (never-never-land). There was a mix-up.
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Old 08.02.2011, 09:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Opinion polls show 47% YES and 45% NO and 8% UNdecided. If the undecided split in half it will be a narrow YES, if they however mostly turn to NO it will be a 55% NO. So that it can become a narrow matter.

Nice would be if the undecided stayed undecided which would result in a narrow YES
Even so, it will be a cantonal NO, as the YES/NO are not evenly divided across cantons, and the small cantons will all surely vote NO.

Tom
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Old 08.02.2011, 09:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Opinion polls show 47% YES and 45% NO and 8% UNdecided. If the undecided split in half it will be a narrow YES, if they however mostly turn to NO it will be a 55% NO. So that it can become a narrow matter.

Nice would be if the undecided stayed undecided which would result in a narrow YES
But since this is an initiative and it modifies the consititution (abrogates article 107 and adds a new article 118c), a double majority is required. Even if it will be close in the popular vote, the initiative will likely fail in the cantonal vote. However, I don't mean to discourage people not to vote!

The argument of the federal government that came with our ballot papers is essentially, current laws and controls are sufficient. No arguments are given about "preserving gun rights". I haven't seen SVP/UDC ads that mention that either. That kind of conflation is only found on this English Forum.

So why change? The arguments of the initiative committee in the ballot papers (reading from the French my own translation):

1. The place for assault weapons is in the arsenal. Each year, firearms cause the loss of around 300 lives in Switzerland. That is 300 lives too many.

2. Reinforce the prevention of violence and suicide.

3. The arms register will help fight against crime.

4. Those who need a firearm can keep them. The initiative is not directed against sports shooters, hunters, and collectors who responsibly use the arms that they hold.
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