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Old 08.02.2011, 09:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Worse than that, in my experience it seems to be disproportionately* stupid and unbalanced individuals that want to deny access to firearms in the first place.

* Before you groan please note I say "disproportionately" not "all" or "only".
There, fixed that for you.

Tom
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  #902  
Old 08.02.2011, 09:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Known as Jurassic Park!
Yeah, that's what I meant. Some seems to have missed my tongue-in-cheek point about Swiss mountains and dinosaurs. I have to use emoticons more often.
  #903  
Old 08.02.2011, 10:08
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Oh dear oh dear, the Vermont myth. Sorry to break it to you, OldFox, but we have heavy social controls, high population density, universal health care, strong tradition of valuing communal harmony more than individual liberty, etc etc. Practically and culturally speaking, we are much more Massachusetts than Vermont.

Having said that, it is more like Vermont than it is like Texas - which is the other comparison American conservatives usually come up with! I hope you get a chance to visit here sometime, if you haven't already.
Having lived an Vermont, I find Switzerland to be quite similar, and hardly having a high population density.

Of course, my reference point is Ticino, and not Zurich!

Tom
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  #904  
Old 08.02.2011, 10:18
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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......

The ' bearing arms for one's country' thing comes from a time when the military relied on guns, but now if a stronger country or government wanted to use its full force to conquer you, then guns won't be much good.
Yeah I guess your argument is pretty solid, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how a bunch of Afgan farmers with Soviet era AK-47s are kicking our @$$ lol?? Help me figure that out. Then you can help me understand how the same guys also spanked England and Soviet Union?? Superpowers of their day.
(Side note- American citizen gun owners also love collecting East-bloc old AK-47s- de-tuned to semi-auto only fire)

Having the guns doesn't guarantee nobody invades, but It guarantees you can fight back if you want to. The Iraqis are still fighting as well. I wept too see the Serbs surrender, but they were attacked and bombed by every traitorous villainous repulsive western nation IIRK (except peaceful Swiss, and Slavic friendly Greece, and Russia didn't join attack at all, neither did Russia help them) If it bothers the Swiss I won't say Swiss, sorry. Switzerland.


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Isn't there some statistic somewhere about how long it would take the Swiss army to be over powered by a leading world power?
I guess Hitler and Stalin never got those important "stats"?

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Where is the country, Swiss, that you speak of with so little knowledge of history or society?
Sorry, "Switzerland"

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Plus, in one post, you have embarrassed almost every yank on this forum.
Let them speak for themselves. As for my fellow Americans who are firearms enthusiasts collectors and target shooters like you and I, all or most of them admire Switzerland as I do, and hold you up as an ideal for living free. "If you want peace, prepare for war."

BTW if my history is so bad as you say, could you please point out somewhere I got my history wrong? I guess maybe the men of Swiss weren't all armed and ready to defend their homeland... and Hitler and Stalin just rolled through and conquered poor old Switzerland like France and Poland (and poor Yugoslavia again, they been invaded alot recently, standing army didn't help them either time).

Note to Yugoslavia if any of it is left- disband useless standing army- adopt a citizens army ala Swiss, and you might have a better chance when US decides to invade you again. Better yet get some nukes. Swiss also needs them badly if you don't have them. Then nobody will invade you forever.
  #905  
Old 08.02.2011, 10:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And by "heavy social controls" .. do your police bash your head in and taser (electrocute/shock, sometimes resulting in death) you for fun after a "traffic stop?" Do your police shoot 13 year old boys in the back, live ammo, resulting in death, no punishment of course? I recall the police in Mass shooting a young (unarmed, peaceful) woman to death in the streets.
Can't help much that the police must assume everyone to be armed.
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Old 08.02.2011, 11:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You don't know what "heavy social controls" are because you live in the freest country in the world.
You've never been here, have you?
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  #907  
Old 08.02.2011, 11:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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There, fixed that for you.

Tom
Yes. Let's all go back and reverse everyone else's posts for them.
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  #908  
Old 08.02.2011, 11:24
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Makes me wonder if someone, somewhere has shone a large searchlight onto some clouds with a silhouette of a rifle on it from the way some of the posters appeared on here.
"Hay-ulp, they're traina tek away mah guns!"
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  #909  
Old 08.02.2011, 11:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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1. The place for assault weapons is in the arsenal.
Exactly where they'll be safe, secure, locked up and unavailable when you need them Mr. Tell, now you are disarmed tyrant bait. Transformed from freemen to slaves, and you voted for it.
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Each year, firearms cause the loss of around 300 lives in Switzerland. That is 300 lives too many.
A- Peaceful Swiss, murder rate lowest any country on Planet Earth, every single year going back 200 yrs (maybe more my Swiss history shaky OK I admit before WW1 era)

B- If you disarm, your murder rate and crime rate will go up not down, exactly like England right now, living perfect example proof. England's crime rate has increased drastically, after they were disarmed. Please ask Bernie Ecclestone about crime in England after the gun ban. (If I am wrong pls correct me, was it England where he was beat up and robbed London style? I forget)

C- Every country has murders and suicides. Sad but fact. You do too. Swiss people are smartest and most peaceful on Earth, but you are only human. Will Swiss gun confiscators feel better when their suicide rate stays unchanged, but the newly disarmed Swiss use other methods, but not guns for suicide like totally disarmed Korea and China and Japan-- High suicide rates hello?? Will you feel better when your poor girls jump-- I bet Swiss girls don't suicide with guns anyway... this topic suicide is cultural not relating to method. Suicide is a tragedy ceterus paribus. The method of suicide is secondary unimportant matter.

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2. Reinforce the prevention of violence and suicide.
Disarm the citizenry, newly helpless, defenseless slaves easily victimized crime goes up, murder rates go up. This is a textbook play, England. Happening right now. Ask your English friends. Look at US example. We keep buying more guns every day. Send us more SIGs please we need more. (By "we" here I mean the citizens, I don't care what the US government buys, that's just squandered and sent to Mubarack etc to use to kill his own slaves, or "Egyptian citizens" it's worse than Brunie Sultan buying 5,000 Ferraris, at least the Ferraris, though unimaginably wasteful, don't hurt anybody) Anyway-- You make awesome guns. Do you make that SIG 550? rifle in a .308? (7.62x51NATO)I need one, 18 inch barrel, folding stock pls- just a side note.
Oh my point- US murder rate is decreasing and the crime rate as well, as we buy more guns, and more "concealed carry" and "open carry" laws pass in free states like Florida and Vermont. Anyway, keeping small time criminals at bay is a side benefit, not the important point of keeping arms, which is freedom. Those poor unarmed Egyptians getting shot down in the street with US guns by Egyptian police. Sad very sad, I paid for those guns. More deep shame for Americans.

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3. The arms register will help fight against crime.
"registration" is only useful as step 1 to "confiscation." After this vote it doesn't stop there. This is just step one. After this the banning guns, the "turn in your guns" "Citizens, turn in your guns!" Lenin.

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4. Those who need a firearm can keep them. The initiative is not directed against sports shooters, hunters, and collectors who responsibly use the arms that they hold.
Divide and conquer ... They do this all the time here in US. I already quoted their most famous lie "we aren't going to take your hunting rifle" Just here fill out these forms and let's see if you qualify for your new license... Hah hah! And the licenses keep changing one law after another. How many "gun collectors" are left in England and Australia? I'm not entirely sure, but probably the same number of who are the family members of powerful politicians, kind of like in the old Soviet Days eh Comrade?

Dear Swiss 2008- I do not address this at you, but I recognize the same old tired lying propaganda they have used on us here in America for so long, so I address each point, though I am not equal to the task, and only as you have noted them. Good luck keeping your freedom sir!!

I love Switzerland. Je Teme Switzerland. Switzerland Ich Liebe dich. Te Amo!!
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  #910  
Old 08.02.2011, 11:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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A- Peaceful Swiss, murder rate lowest any country on Planet Earth...

Swiss people are smartest and most peaceful on Earth...
...and therefore guns are needed?

NRA/KKK propaganda is not working too well in europe...
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  #911  
Old 08.02.2011, 11:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I'm OK with ~most of?~ what you just said Pythagorias, except the Massachusetts part. Do your Senators drown their mistresses, and get away with it and get re-elected forever? If no, then you aren't like Mass. And universal health care works, if you don't have free-riders, (imagine having half the population of Mexico, in say Zurich, do you think "health care" would work for Swiss under those conditions?) And "communal harmony" .. aren't you kind of repeating what I said about Swiss and Vermont. I recall saying something about civilized living and pleasant living?
We agree.
Whew, seem to have hit a nerve. Vermont and Massachusetts are both nice places to live in my opinion - Kennedys or no Kennedys. To be honest they're more like each other than either of them is like the midwest (where I grew up) - and for what it's worth I would also say that either of them is more like the midwest than it is like Switzerland!

Let's look at some statistics. Switzerland's overall population density is 188/km^2 (487/sq.mi.) However, a huge portion of that is the steep bits, which apart from the odd ski resort are more or less uninhabited. Take those out and you are talking 600/km^2 in the plains - Taiwan levels, more or less. That's denser than Massachusetts, denser than New Jersey, and it is about 24 times denser than Vermont. There are parts of Switzerland (the aforementioned alpine bits) that have similar population density to Vermont but only because - well, because nobody lives there. (Sorry!)

Even the parts that are scenically most like Vermont - the prealpine region, characterized by small agriculture and light manufacturing - have 5 to 10 times the population density of Vermont.

Forgetting about law, history, politics for a minute: if you have 5 times the people crowded into the same space, you can expect to find a different culture, different lifestyle - that's just anthropological common sense. And so it is.

Sorry to hammer the point home but it seems necessary. Demographically Switzerland is much more like Massachusetts than it is like Vermont.

Turning to culture: I said a few paragraphs ago that Vermont and Massachusetts are more like each other than they are like Switzerland (or indeed anything in Europe.)
I stand by that, but what I meant with my previous post is that - contrasting Massachusetts and Vermont solely with one another for a minute - Massachusetts was settled by Puritans, right? Extreme conformism. Religious freedom but only on the colony/community level; individual liberty thoroughly subordinated to whatever the community decides is proper behavior. Cotton Mather, blue laws, Salem witch hunt. Modernized since then but still with a strong cultural preference for local government, distrust of individual nonconformism, and a sneaking suspicion that too much freedom is dangerous to the soul. That is Switzerland in an overgeneralized nutshell.

Whereas Vermont - Ethan Allen and the Green Mountain boys, right - hardy backwoodsmen, hill farmers, Robert Frost, "good fences make good neighbors"? Not Switzerland. (Nice cheese in both though, that's a similarity.)


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You don't know what "heavy social controls" are because you live in the freest country in the world. Please don't ever change. I love Switzerland!
There's free and then there's free. Somalia has considerably more freedom, in the sense that you can do what you want if you don't get killed trying. Hong Kong has considerably more freedom, in the sense that you rise or fall by your own business acumen and government won't lift a finger to help or hinder.
Despite what you may have heard about all the voting and all the Sturmgewehrs under the beds, Switzerland doesn't have an especial lot of "freedom" in either of these senses. Switzerland has highly decentralized government. There's a difference.

Don't get me wrong, Switzerland is a great place to live if your idea of 'living' involves a lot of going with the flow, learning the Swiss rules and playing by them, moderating your freewheeling swashbuckling liberty lifestyle down to a few harmless and socially acceptable eccentricities. Mine does and so I think it's fantastic. Clean, safe, quiet, central, everything I want. It is just weird to find the country constantly held up as a shining example of conservatism/libertarianism/minimal government when it so patently is not.

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Funny that you mention Texas, but I'm not an American conservative. I'm a classical liberal French/German, who was accidentally born far from where I was supposed to be born (Switzerland). There was a mix-up.
OK, classical liberal it is then - sorry. The "USSA" thing threw me off; in my experience it's more popular in neocon circles.

As an aside, how do you know you were supposed to be born in Switzerland? "There was a mix-up"? What kind of mix-up? Sorry, it's an impertinent question, I know - but I'm trying to imagine - some "pregnant woman gets lost in airport, boards wrong flight, gives birth in wrong country" scenario maybe. (No disrespect to your mother, of course.)

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I have been through the Austrian alps, so I think I got a taste of the local scenery, and can imagine what Swiss is like. And I wish I was there now alas....
I meant for the lifestyle, more than the scenery. Google Earth or Youtube will get you a good look at the scenery.

I wish you were too. If you do make it over here sometime, get in touch - I'll buy you a coffee somewhere and tell you what it's really like.
In the meantime, a few facts that aren't directly relevant to this discussion but may or may not shake up some preconceptions:
  • 70% of Switzerland lives in apartments. The home ownership rate is the lowest in western Europe at 34%.
  • Noise ordinances exist at every level of government - federal, cantonal, communal. There are also house rules if you rent (see previous statistic) and your neighbors will take great pleasure in seeing that you comply with these. These frequently involve things like being quiet from 12-2PM, not vacuuming on Sundays, or not taking a bath after 10PM (actually the rules frequently say no showering either, but this has been struck down by the courts. Apparently showers are a human right in Switzerland, baths aren't.)
  • Whenever you move house, you have 10 days to deregister your old address and register the new one. Even if it is in the same town.
  • There is a state religion; in fact there are four, supported by the taxes of their various adherents. Children take religious education classes in school, Protestant or Catholic depending on the canton. (Opting out is possible but the stock opinion is that it'll do them no harm.)
  • The Swiss stereotype in the rest of Europe is completely different from the Swiss stereotype in the US. Over here the Swiss are perceived to be quiet, rule-obsessed, extremely procedural, and a bit priggish and self-satisfied. Of course it's just a stereotype - but the fact it's common among people who have actually been to Switzerland, or met some Swiss, suggests it might be worth bearing in mind, just as an alternative to the standard 'Merican view.
PS - You can call me Hypatia.

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I'm OK with ~most of?~ what you just said Pythagorias
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  #912  
Old 08.02.2011, 11:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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B- If you disarm, your murder rate and crime rate will go up not down, exactly like England right now, living perfect example proof. England's crime rate has increased drastically, after they were disarmed. Please ask Bernie Ecclestone about crime in England after the gun ban. (If I am wrong pls correct me, was it England where he was beat up and robbed London style? I forget)
London style? You mean, he wasn't held up at gunpoint and survived the encounter?

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C- Every country has murders and suicides. Sad but fact. You do too. Swiss people are smartest and most peaceful on Earth, but you are only human. Will Swiss gun confiscators feel better when their suicide rate stays unchanged, but the newly disarmed Swiss use other methods, but not guns for suicide like totally disarmed Korea and China and Japan-- High suicide rates hello?? Will you feel better when your poor girls jump-- I bet Swiss girls don't suicide with guns anyway... this topic suicide is cultural not relating to method. Suicide is a tragedy ceterus paribus. The method of suicide is secondary unimportant matter.
You must be unaware of the murder suicides that brought this vote up.

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Disarm the citizenry, newly helpless, defenseless slaves easily victimized crime goes up, murder rates go up. This is a textbook play, England. Happening right now. Ask your English friends. Look at US example. We keep buying more guns every day. Send us more SIGs please we need more. (By "we" here I mean the citizens, I don't care what the US government buys, that's just squandered and sent to Mubarack etc to use to kill his own slaves, or "Egyptian citizens" it's worse than Brunie Sultan buying 5,000 Ferraris, at least the Ferraris, though unimaginably wasteful, don't hurt anybody) Anyway-- You make awesome guns. Do you make that SIG 550? rifle in a .308? (7.62x51NATO)I need one, 18 inch barrel, folding stock pls- just a side note.
I am English, you don't know what you're talking about.

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Oh my point- US murder rate is decreasing and the crime rate as well, as we buy more guns, and more "concealed carry" and "open carry" laws pass in free states like Florida and Vermont. Anyway, keeping small time criminals at bay is a side benefit, not the important point of keeping arms, which is freedom. Those poor unarmed Egyptians getting shot down in the street with US guns by Egyptian police. Sad very sad, I paid for those guns. More deep shame for Americans.
wonder what would have happened in egypt if all those anti gov protesters had been carrying guns. A bloodbath probably, and the tyrant would have had an excuse for it.

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I love Switzerland. Je Teme Switzerland. Switzerland Ich Liebe dich. Te Amo!!
I doubt Switzerland feels the same about you.
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  #913  
Old 08.02.2011, 12:06
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

People who get emotional about firearm ownership freak me out.

A "yes" vote for me.
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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People who get emotional about firearm ownership freak me out.
I have particular distrust of guys armed to the teeth who think secret and invisible forces are trying to enslave them.
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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What is the definition of a "licensed shooter" in this context?
If the iniative is approved the parliament will have to decide on a new law with a proper definition.

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Collector also sounds pretty ambiguous.
Same as above.

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1. The place for assault weapons is in the arsenal. Each year, firearms cause the loss of around 300 lives in Switzerland. That is 300 lives too many.
I'm repeating myself here, but as long as this piece of misinformation is being spread, I don't care. About 90% of those 300 are suicides. The idea that suicides can be prevented by taking away people's guns is utterly laughable. There are plenty of other methods to kill oneself. Just look at the data about women in the graphs that someone posted further up in this thread to get an idea.

All those who are in favor of the initiative because they care about suicides would much rather ask themselves why so many people in this wonderful country decide to commit suicide in the first place!

In 2009 there were 26 (and not 300!) people killed by gunfire. Unfortunately there are no statistics on whether the guns used were legally owned or not.

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2. Reinforce the prevention of violence and suicide.
As mentioned above the suicide prevention argument is complete b.s.
If you leave out the suicides there's no gun violence problem left that requires government intervention on such a massive scale as proposed by the initiative. Even more so as there is no data available on whether the crimes have been commited with legally owned guns or not.

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3. The arms register will help fight against crime.
There already are cantonal registers plus plans to exchange data among them. No need for the iniative.

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4. Those who need a firearm can keep them. The initiative is not directed against sports shooters, hunters, and collectors who responsibly use the arms that they hold.
I strongly prefer people deciding by themselves what they need or not over some government bureaucat deciding for them!
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:29
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I strongly prefer people deciding by themselves what they need or not over some government bureaucat deciding for them!
I thought that was how the whole system worked here? The elected officials don't get to make the decisions, those are made through referendums, as I understood.
The more this debate goes on, the more I seem to think that this initiative is not about taking guns away from people who want them but actually allowing people that don't want to be forced to have a millitary gun in their house to have an option. I mean, after all if you are a sports shooter, you should be able to keep your millitary weapon if you want to right?
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I'm repeating myself here, but as long as this piece of misinformation is being spread, I don't care. About 90% of those 300 are suicides.The idea that suicides can be prevented by taking away people's guns is utterly laughable.
You can repeat yourself until you are blue-in-the-face, but you still don't seem to read the posts in this thread and instead make inferences into the original text. The text simply says violence because the number are a mix and the original goal was to stop suicide-murders (i.e., man with gun kills wife and child then himself). The initiative's goal is not to reduce suicide in general; that's another problem. Get it?
  #918  
Old 08.02.2011, 12:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You can repeat yourself until you are blue-in-the-face, but you still don't seem to read the posts in this thread and instead make inferences into the original text. The text simply says violence because the number are a mix and the original goal was to stop suicide-murders (i.e., man with gun kills wife and child then himself). The initiative's goal is not to reduce suicide in general; that's another problem. Get it?
Why would it stop them? If I stumbled upon a loved one in the act of commiting suicide by knife, and got the knife away, I wouldn't go for a pint. There's a reason why they would attempt it, and someone willing, wanting, to kill their family before suicide are not going to say, "ah well, they took my gun, s'pose I'll hit the pub and see what the boys are up to". Regardless of which way the vote goes, since this seems to be the push behind the initiative, I am curious what's being done to get at the root of the problem ? Why are people killing their families?
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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People who get emotional about firearm ownership freak me out.

[therefore] A "yes" vote for me.
Bravo! Just as irrational as the Aussieman-stylie "no" argument, mind, but at least yours has the virtue of brevity.

Thread could do with more of that. (says she, having just made a probably-close-to-1000-word contribution to it herself)
  #920  
Old 08.02.2011, 12:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I thought that was how the whole system worked here? The elected officials don't get to make the decisions, those are made through referendums, as I understood.
Actually no. The community decides, not the individual which is what the original post was referring to. An important difference.
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army, guns, referendum, tradition, weapons




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