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Old 08.02.2011, 12:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why would it stop them? If I stumbled upon a loved one in the act of commiting suicide by knife, and got the knife away, I wouldn't go for a pint. There's a reason why they would attempt it, and someone willing, wanting, to kill their family before suicide are not going to say, "ah well, they took my gun, s'pose I'll hit the pub and see what the boys are up to". Regardless of which way the vote goes, since this seems to be the push behind the initiative, I am curious what's being done to get at the root of the problem ? Why are people killing their families?
Much harder to outrun a bullet than a knife.

I know - personally - 2 women that have been threatened by drunken husbands with their military weapons. Fortunately in both cases nothing ultimately happened. Makes my voting choice easy.
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why would it stop them? If I stumbled upon a loved one in the act of commiting suicide by knife, and got the knife away, I wouldn't go for a pint.
And if it's a gun and not a knife, you probably wouldn't even have a chance to intervene.
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There's a reason why they would attempt it, and someone willing, wanting, to kill their family before suicide are not going to say, "ah well, they took my gun, s'pose I'll hit the pub and see what the boys are up to". Regardless of which way the vote goes, since this seems to be the push behind the initiative, I am curious what's being done to get at the root of the problem ? Why are people killing their families?
I guess anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much, but a lifelong friend of my girlfriend was impulsively shot by her partner late last year, he then shot himself, leaving 4 kids orphans. He was mentally unstable, physically abusive, and still allowed to own a gun. One of the kids only heard two shots before they had time to run up the stairs and find their mother and step-father shot to death. Had it been a knife or had he tried to choke her... how much longer could it have taken? Could they have heard her scream? Could he have had time to think about what he was doing?

For me it's not really an emotional thing, but just looking at it from a logistical point of view, the way firearms facilitate, quicken, and empower violence, there is no comparison. Suicide will always exist, but I believe there are ways to control the means. Just as poverty and hunger will always exist, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take measures against it being easier to screw people over and have them find themselves in such situations.
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Old 08.02.2011, 12:58
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Bravo! Just as irrational as the Aussieman-stylie "no" argument, mind, but at least yours has the virtue of brevity.

Thread could do with more of that. (says she, having just made a probably-close-to-1000-word contribution to it herself)
Nah, I have my own reasons for being against the initiative (see previous post). I was mostly referring to all the people typing tirades into keyboards with tears in their eyes about how the last bastions of their freedoms is being taken away from them. The whole love affair many people have with guns is just bizarre to me.
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Old 08.02.2011, 13:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I thought that was how the whole system worked here? The elected officials don't get to make the decisions, those are made through referendums, as I understood.
Well, I was not talking about the enactment but about the enforcement of the law.

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The more this debate goes on, the more I seem to think that this initiative is not about taking guns away from people who want them but actually allowing people that don't want to be forced to have a millitary gun in their house to have an option.
They already have that option. If someone doesn't want to have his gun at home he can have it stored at the armory for free. The initiative wants to force people to have it stored at the armory.

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I mean, after all if you are a sports shooter, you should be able to keep your millitary weapon if you want to right?
If you are a frequent, regular shooter then probably yes, but the exact requirements will be outlined in the law. If you're just an occasional shooter, you might be out of luck.

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You can repeat yourself until you are blue-in-the-face,
Well, so can you.

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but you still don't seem to read the posts in this thread and instead make inferences into the original text. The text simply says violence because the number are a mix[...]
There is no 'mix'. The data from the Federal Statistics Office makes a crystal clear diffence between suicides by gunfire and other deaths by gunfire. If a person is shot by someone else it's no suicide. It doesn't matter what happens afterwards.

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[...]and the original goal was to stop suicide-murders (i.e., man with gun kills wife and child then himself).
I don't really care what the original goals were. I care about the effects the initiative actually will have. Besides, these cases are so rare, they hardly justify such far reaching restrictions on peoples' rights.

Last edited by Mark75; 08.02.2011 at 13:26.
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  #925  
Old 08.02.2011, 13:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Nah, I have my own reasons for being against the initiative (see previous post). I was mostly referring to all the people typing tirades into keyboards with tears in their eyes about how the last bastions of their freedoms is being taken away from them. The whole love affair many people have with guns is just bizarre to me.
Fair enough. To Americans of a certain stripe it's like banning - I don't know, alphorns or something here. Only a fraction actually own one, fewer yet use one with any degree of regularity, but it's symbolic of a way of life, and so the attempt to restrict ownership becomes a perceived assault on that way of life. Rights and constitutions aside, it is a very emotionally charged issue for exactly that reason.

Knowing that, I can understand how the debate there evolved into the shape it did - the gun as prized/detested artifact, all the peripheral arguments both for and against, playing on irrational fears of both sides - but I don't think that has any bearing whatsoever on Swiss politics and I'm a bit annoyed to see so many people joining the forum lately with no other purpose apparently than to set us all straight / cackle over our coming enslavement.

We were assured this sort of thing wouldn't happen...
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  #926  
Old 08.02.2011, 13:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Actually no. The community decides, not the individual which is what the original post was referring to. An important difference.
Sorry, confused, please explain.
  #927  
Old 08.02.2011, 13:53
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I was just thinking what one of these threads will look like when we can have small fusion reactors at home...
  #928  
Old 08.02.2011, 14:01
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

As this seems to have degenerated into "OMG, grab guns, the NWO's-a-comin'!", I'm always amused that people think there's enough high-level organisation in the world to pull off a NWO. I mean, FFS, the US couldn't stop sensitive data from being leaked and it looks increasingly likely that they can't even get their hands on the man who published it.
And seriously even if the NWO and its black helpicopters came for your town, how long do a bunch of pistol-armed nutjobs think they could hold them off?
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Old 08.02.2011, 14:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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As this seems to have degenerated into "OMG, grab guns, the NWO's-a-comin'!", I'm always amused that people think there's enough high-level organisation in the world to pull off a NWO. I mean, FFS, the US couldn't stop sensitive data from being leaked and it looks increasingly likely that they can't even get their hands on the man who published it.
And seriously even if the NWO and its black helpicopters came for your town, how long do a bunch of pistol-armed nutjobs think they could hold them off?
Samolia comes to my mind How long is this going on now 15 years ??BTW What Those NWO stand for IHNFQ
  #930  
Old 08.02.2011, 14:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Samolia comes to my mind How long is this going on now 15 years ??BTW What Those NWO stand for IHNFQ
"New World Order" - google it for hours of scary fun. Seems to be effectively interchangeable with The Illiminati - a society so secret and powerful that only people called Bufous T. Clutter, an owner of 6-700 firearms and a bottle of lithium/valium mix can get into to give us all the information on how they're plotting to depopulate the world to establish their form of evil government.
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Old 08.02.2011, 14:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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BTW What Those NWO stand for
I am assuming New World Order
  #932  
Old 08.02.2011, 14:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Yeah I guess your argument is pretty solid, but I'm having a hard time figuring out how a bunch of Afgan farmers with Soviet era AK-47s are kicking our @$$ lol?? Help me figure that out. Then you can help me understand how the same guys also spanked England and Soviet Union?? Superpowers of their day.
(
It is to do with rugged terrain ,where they hide is hospitable to tanks. It is also to do with culture.

We can't carpet bomb Afghanistan because firstly, it would be inhumane and secondly, would give rise to more extremism.
I think that the Afghans are winning with the IED's.Why don't they allow IED in Switzerland isn't that also the right to bear arms? Perhasp we should be allowed bazookas too? What Switzerland and the US needs is more Supergrans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
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Old 08.02.2011, 15:01
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You can repeat yourself until you are blue-in-the-face, but you still don't seem to read the posts in this thread and instead make inferences into the original text. The text simply says violence because the number are a mix and the original goal was to stop suicide-murders (i.e., man with gun kills wife and child then himself). The initiative's goal is not to reduce suicide in general; that's another problem. Get it?
That means there will be other referendums baning ,Cars ,Farm machinery's ,Construction ,Frying pans,Knives Rollingpins Etc, Etc,
  #934  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:16
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And if it's a gun and not a knife, you probably wouldn't even have a chance to intervene.I guess anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much, but a lifelong friend of my girlfriend was impulsively shot by her partner late last year, he then shot himself, leaving 4 kids orphans. He was mentally unstable, physically abusive, and still allowed to own a gun. One of the kids only heard two shots before they had time to run up the stairs and find their mother and step-father shot to death. Had it been a knife or had he tried to choke her... how much longer could it have taken? Could they have heard her scream? Could he have had time to think about what he was doing?

For me it's not really an emotional thing, but just looking at it from a logistical point of view, the way firearms facilitate, quicken, and empower violence, there is no comparison. Suicide will always exist, but I believe there are ways to control the means. Just as poverty and hunger will always exist, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take measures against it being easier to screw people over and have them find themselves in such situations.
Interesting :Your Wife knew her friend lives with a mentally unstable abusing partner
  #935  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:16
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I don't really care what the original goals were. I care about the effects the initiative actually will have. Besides, these cases are so rare, they hardly justify such far reaching restrictions on peoples' rights.
So rare? Maybe 300 per year is a small number for the US, but not for Switzerland. For me, the number sounds huge. But I guess you think it is not worth considering doing anything about it.

And in any case, only you (and some others on this forum) believe that the initiative is something about "peoples' rights". Among the Swiss, the issues are security at home/safety (YES) versus tradition/inconvenient access to arsenal/sufficient laws (NO). Your gun-rights debate is something that is applicable to Americans not to us.

Last edited by Suisse2008; 08.02.2011 at 15:19. Reason: Correct reasoning
  #936  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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how they're plotting to depopulate the world to establish their form of evil government.
With current trends in humanity, "they" are going to have to end up doing anything, humanity is doing a pretty good job of making sure that it is going to wiping itself out very effectivley.
  #937  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So rare? Maybe 300 per year is a small number for the US, but not for Switzerland. For me, the number sounds huge. But I guess you think it is not worth considering doing anything about it.

And in any case, only you (and some others on this forum) believe that the initiative is something about "peoples' rights". Among the Swiss, the issues are security at home/safety (YES) versus tradition/inconvenient access to arsenal/sufficient laws (NO). Your gun-rights debate is something that is applicable to Americans not to us.
Switzerland is like what-the size of NY? Still even then 300 is nothing we've had more than that in my neighborhood, the villains now walk aourn in bullet-proof vests.Tut tut Switzerland really has a lot of catching-up to do.

Gotta sell those Glocks!
  #938  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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With current trends in humanity, "they" are going to have to end up doing anything, humanity is doing a pretty good job of making sure that it is going to wiping itself out very effectivley.
Weirdly, I think the consiracy believers work the hardest to make sure we suffer at our own hands.

Vaccines? International plan to kill us all.
Climate change? International hoax to tax us all
Coordinated efforts against war/poverty/injustice? NWO

In fact, every time anyone comes up with an idea that would be any good, these chumps think they've found the antichtrist.
  #939  
Old 08.02.2011, 15:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I thought it was Iran based Cyrus and the Cylinder (now on loan to British Museum from Iran) - the universally acknowledged first charter of Human rights.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh this means there is lots of Trouble ahead for all the democratic nations
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Old 08.02.2011, 15:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Switzerland is like what-the size of NY?
What???
New York: 54,556 sq mi, 19,378,102 people.
Switzerland: 15,940 sq mi, 7,785,600 people.

The only thing that could be considdered to be possibly similar between the two would be population density but then most of NY state's population is in NYC and surrounds (477, Switzerland, 408 NY).

Guess we will let the Germans keep their handguns.
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