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Old 10.01.2011, 16:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Leaving the family murders aside for the moment, this fairly recent article implies that Switzerland has a far greater number of suicides by gun per head of capita than any other European country. If this article is to be believed then it would suggest there are good grounds for this initiative.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/specials...ml?cid=8301804
So let's say we take the numbers at face value. 40% of those deaths are using a military weapon. Ok, let's say we take away all of those and lock them up. SO that leaves, what?, 200 people a year affecting the choices of an entire nation that have no problem with, and no trouble with, guns. Does that make sense? Can we ban smoking, alcohol, and automobiles now?
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Old 10.01.2011, 16:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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from that article:

Police reported 610 homicides in Canada during 2009, one fewer than the previous year, according to the federal agency. Of those, 179 were committed by firearms, 21 fewer than in 2008 and a 12 per cent decline.

Lol!
only 600 homicides in the whole country? not bad! I think some of the american cities with the highest rates are close to that on their own (Detroit, Baltimore, Oakland...)

Funny that manitoba and saskatchewan recorded the highest "rate". I guess when your provinces only have about 8 people in them if one of them gets bumped off it hurts the overall rate.
Thanks,well in this chase I take 610 homicide as a complement
  #83  
Old 10.01.2011, 16:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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only if you think that suicide by guns is worse than any other method or that banning guns would prevent these deaths.
I think it will go a long way to preventing a number of these deaths. Obviously it won't prevent all suicides, but I'm pretty sure that by removing firearms out of easy reach it will prevent a number of "on the spur" suicides.

A few years ago the son of somebody I knew quite well killed himself with his fathers shotgun, probably the only type of firearm that you can still legally own in England. The gun was indeed locked away in a cabinet, nevertheless the son managed to open it, obtain the gun, load it and then shoot himself. Of course nobody to this day knows the reason why as the reasons go to the grave with the person. However I remain convinced that if a gun was not readily available, then this 17 year old would in all probability be alive today.
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  #84  
Old 10.01.2011, 17:10
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

It's a fact that Switzerland has a relatively high suicide rate, #17 worldwide. But the funny thing (if you want to call it funny) is, the suicide rate of the men is # 23, whereas that of the women is #2. Needless to say that most of those women do not use their men's military weapons and ammo.

By the way, the gun-toting USA is #40 in that list.

Food for thought?
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Old 10.01.2011, 17:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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By the way, the gun-toting USA is #40 in that list. Food for thought?
I'd like to know your source for that. Apart from lawless west African states with kid soldiers, South Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq, Mexico and maybe Brasil, I'd be hard pressed to know who could "outgun" the USA.
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Old 10.01.2011, 17:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I'd like to know your source for that. Apart from lawless west African states with kid soldiers, South Africa, Afghanistan, Iraq, Mexico and maybe Brasil, I'd be hard pressed to know who could "outgun" the USA.
i believe the post refers to countries that outsuicide the US, not out gun it.
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Old 10.01.2011, 17:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2010

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Our household will be voting 'NO'.

Tom
A very interesting quote!"Our household".I always believed ,it was like this bevor women voted But don`t get me wrong ,I am in favor of women voting
  #88  
Old 10.01.2011, 17:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So let's say we take the numbers at face value. 40% of those deaths are using a military weapon. Ok, let's say we take away all of those and lock them up. SO that leaves, what?, 200 people a year affecting the choices of an entire nation that have no problem with, and no trouble with, guns. Does that make sense? Can we ban smoking, alcohol, and automobiles now?
Swiss democracy 101: This is an initiative. So if it passes, then the majority of people and of cantons want it to be that way.

What the initiative would also do away with: As a swiss or holder of a C-permit, you can go and buy a rifle (only rifles) with nothing but your ID. No background check, no nothing.
  #89  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:00
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Their system has worked for hundreds of years... If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
(should the recent foreigners even really have a say in this issue?)
  #90  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:10
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Their system has worked for hundreds of years... If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
(should the recent foreigners even really have a say in this issue?)
Recent foreigners with Swiss passports and voting rights? You obviously don't know the Swiss system very well, do you?
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:10
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Their system has worked for hundreds of years... If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
(should the recent foreigners even really have a say in this issue?)
A rather simplistic view don't you think? Bearing in mind that Swiss military history has been peppered with mercenaries earning their keep in foreign armies, the prevalence of firearms was a fact of life that has been kept alive with the militia army system of today. In my opinion, it's time to change. If this referendum is accepted, then I can see the foundation of the militia army also being brought into question, which has been a seemingly fireproof topic here for many years. As Treverus wrote, Germany is dispensing of this archaic remnant of the past and it would be good for Switzerland to embrace democracy on this level too I believe.
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  #92  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Their system has worked for hundreds of years... If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
(should the recent foreigners even really have a say in this issue?)
"Ain't broke, don't fix it" is not a recipe for the optimal.

There should be reform and modernisation where there are sufficient grounds.
  #93  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2010

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A very interesting quote!"Our household".I always believed ,it was like this bevor women voted But don`t get me wrong ,I am in favor of women voting
My girlfriend and older daughter agree with me on this matter, hence the use of 'household' (younger daughter can't vote until April)

Tom
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:18
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

It's hard to find reliable numbers but I think the WHO is pretty solid. They have a table listing suicide statistics by country here, which is interesting.

Comparing UK and Switzerland, by percentages, they are pretty equal. But Switzerland shows 33.5% firearm related compared to UK at 3.5%. BUT, UK shows 55.2% from hanging compared to Switzerland at 27.3%.

I'm no mathematician, but it appears that the lack of gun access in the UK is made up for with rope.

As for muders, this was the best I could find (data is a bit old).

Murders per capita:
# 46 United Kingdom: 0.0140633 per 1,000 people
# 56 Switzerland: 0.00921351 per 1,000 people


Murders per capita firearm related:

# 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people


So UK beats Switzerland for murders. Switzerland beats UK for murders with guns. But still, considering gun access is extremely limited in the UK it seems odd that they are as close as they are to Switzerland in gun related murders .

Just some numbers to ponder...

Last edited by Mud; 10.01.2011 at 18:25. Reason: spelling
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So UK beats Switzerland for murders. Switzerland beats UK for murders with guns. But still, considering gun access is extremely limited in the UK it seems odd that they are as close as they are to Switzerland in gun related murders .
Your answer: Long range, sub-orbital trajectory shots originating within Swiss borders at UK targets perhaps?
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:28
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I do know one person that says that he wouldn't normally consider suicide but if he was in a room with a gun, he would be drawn to it.
let's test him.
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:28
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Murders per capita firearm related:
# 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
So UK beats Switzerland for murders. Switzerland beats UK for murders with guns. But still, considering gun access is extremely limited in the UK it seems odd that they are as close as they are to Switzerland in gun related murders .
The ratio is 5x times as high for Switzerland - you call that close ?

Last edited by xkcd; 10.01.2011 at 18:29. Reason: typo
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

can we have a third way and ban it in half the cantons. then we can conduct a statistical experiment to finally resolve the issue of whether gun control has an impact on the number of suicides.
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The ratio is 5x times as high for Switzerland - you call that close ?
yes when you compare number of guns per capita.
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Old 10.01.2011, 18:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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let's test him.
That's not really funny.
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