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  #981  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Did I mention a government behind it? Don't think so. So when you read anything written in a newspaper you instantly dismiss it. Yes, no? What other cliches do you hold paramount?
Content from the Daily Mail must be heavily filtered.
  #982  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I thought he said: "The mountains are that way: run!!!!! ... oh, and don't forget the gold..."

Interesting is that he spoke, already in 1940, about "a role Switzerland had to play in a postwar Europe of the future". And no, Henri Guisan was not in favour of surrender. His speech was NOT a speech to the bankers, but to the people
  #983  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It seems that when your shown what will happen you laugh it of...

so be it, don't come begging when all your rights are gone...

have fun
Erm, are you still here?

We don't agree with you assessment of the situation. Even if we believe your view of events and their causes and effects.
  #984  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:44
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Please do enlighten us how legitimate shooters will be penalised...! I'm all ears, since you seem to have more info than everybody else..
Then listen up.

Firstly, since the last firearms amendment, November 09 if I recall correctly, a Waffenerwerbscien is needed for all firearm purchases. Prior to this, a Waffener was only needed for handguns, semi automatic guns and pump action shotguns. Hunting rifles could be purchased over the counter on production of an ID card.

Soldiers who have completed their reserve are entitled to keep their weapon if they so choose. Only those with a vested interest in shooting, or officers who want to keep their pistol for posterity or sentimental reasons, do do, the rest surrender them.


This initiative is targeting all shooters from existing members of the army, to retired members and shooters in general be they hunters, target shooters or collectors. The database will be wholly incomplete as not everybody will register their arms. unless one can demonstrate good reason for owning a gun, then it will be impossible to purchase one. But there are ways and means to circumvent this.

Speaking to my dealer and other friends in the club, the consensus is that this so called initiative will be the first of many, with the aim of disarming the populace.
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  #985  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:04
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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--
Heh, heh, a sly old fox was he not? Great link- Can you link to the English transcript for that speech? my German is pitiful sorry.
-
General Guisan was fluent in French and German (incl Swiss-German) and also had some knowledge of English and Italian, but while I suppose there to be an Italian transcript or even an original Italian speach, I heavily doubt that an English version of any kind exists


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I'm OK with ~most of?~ what you just said Pythagorias, except the Massachusetts part. Do your Senators drown their mistresses, and get away with it and get re-elected forever? If no, then you aren't like Mass.
What you mention is Senator Edward Kennedy by a tragic mistake having become partially guilty for that accident. That accident terminated his presidential aspirations. Also Swiss politicians at times cause accidents. And so, by your logic, Switzerland IS Massachusetts


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And universal health care works, if you don't have free-riders, (imagine having half the population of Mexico, in say Zurich, do you think "health care" would work for Swiss under those conditions?)
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The population of Mexico is more than 110 mio. To claim that 55 mio. Mexicans lived in any particular city of the USA, or even in the USA as a whole, is a bizarre theory. Not a theory however is that a considerable part of the population of Pristina for a while lived in the Canton of Zurich (many still do ! )

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And by "heavy social controls" .. do your police bash your head in and taser (electrocute/shock, sometimes resulting in death) you for fun after a "traffic stop?" Do your police shoot 13 year old boys in the back, live ammo, resulting in death, no punishment of course?
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> by "heavy social controls" it is not the police which is spoken about, but the general population and the municipal administration (Meldepflicht/duty-of-registration, which does not exist anywhere in the USA, as an example).
> you speak as if the bulk of policemen in the USA did act as described, while it of course is a fairly small number of them who fail. And usually, as I got it from policemen I know, the "corps" covers failures against the outside, but what then goes on internally is different

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I recall the police in Mass shooting a young (unarmed, peaceful) woman to death in the streets. Has that ever happened in Bern? If no, you have no "heavy social controls." You don't know what "heavy social controls" are because you live in the freest country in the world. Please don't ever change. I love Switzerland!
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> Also in Switzerland, policemen at times went too far, causing terror and even death to innocents, but just as in the USA, you cannot generalize, and you have to see that mistakes can happen
> Again, "social controls" are not exerted by the police, but by your neighbours, by passers-by, by the general population.
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  #986  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:07
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Thanks for posting that Conor.

However I believe the antis have all made up their minds now to destroy your sporting rights and inherrent responsibilites. Only an emotive post flickers their bigoted ears.

You know what the saddest thing is about this? You Yesers are voting for someting that doesn't exist; a utopian idea of a gun free land. Admit it yesers, vote and then watch the country rot, as the criminals, the army and the police arm themselves and scoff at the sheep who used to be wolves. No you won't need army guns at home, you can't fight the enemy within.

To all who would vote Yes, then carry sticking your head in the sand. To those who would vote no, I salute you.
  #987  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Having lived an Vermont, I find Switzerland to be quite similar, and hardly having a high population density.

Of course, my reference point is Ticino, and not Zurich!

Tom
The alps cover more than 50% of the land area, but only 15% of the people live above 850m above sea level (for obvious reasons), and so, Switzerland, in the inhabitable aereas, is as densily populated as populated it can be. The outer suburbs of Zurich, as the areas between Zurich and the Canton of Congo are full, spread out northwards, and some 30 years ago reached the area around the airport, some 15 years ago Oberglatt and Bülach, and now increasingly Eglisau and Rafz and so the German border. This is NOT Vermont, and worlds away from the wide open plains of Texas
  #988  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So rare? Maybe 300 per year is a small number for the US, but not for Switzerland. For me, the number sounds huge.
If 300 was really the number of people being shot by others I would most likely agree with you. But it is not. The Federal Statistics Office has published the data for the last few years on their website (Link to Excel file). E.g. in 2008 there were 259 people killed by gunfire but 239 of those were suicides.
That means that not 300 but 20 people were actually shot by someone else in 2008 which sounds a lot less scary to me. BTW the victims of the 'murder-suicides' you mentioned before would also fall into the category of those 20 victims except for the person actually killing herself.

Trying to reduce suicides by banning guns is just plain stupid and useless because it just doesn't work as there are so many other ways to kill oneself.

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And in any case, only you (and some others on this forum) believe that the initiative is something about "peoples' rights". Among the Swiss, the issues are security at home/safety (YES) versus tradition/inconvenient access to arsenal/sufficient laws (NO). Your gun-rights debate is something that is applicable to Americans not to us.
Yeah, I know that many Swiss (just like you) don't realize that they're about to give up one of their essential rights, but that doesn't change the fact that they're giving it up. I just hope that they won't regret it later...

Oh, and I'm 100% Swiss by the way.
  #989  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:35
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Having the guns doesn't guarantee nobody invades, but It guarantees you can fight back if you want to.
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A yes to the initiative would NOT reduce the Swiss armed forces in any way. Beside the point the the Swiss armed forces do not have the constitutional order to "fight back" but to defend the country


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Let them speak for themselves. As for my fellow Americans who are firearms enthusiasts collectors and target shooters like you and I, all or most of them admire Switzerland as I do, and hold you up as an ideal for living free. "If you want peace, prepare for war."

BTW if my history is so bad as you say, could you please point out somewhere I got my history wrong? I guess maybe the men of Swiss weren't all armed and ready to defend their homeland... and Hitler and Stalin just rolled through and conquered poor old Switzerland like France and Poland (and poor Yugoslavia again, they been invaded alot recently, standing army didn't help them either time).
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Poland and France tried to resist, but the Polish army was outdated and got attacked from two sides in wide open terrains. The French armed forces became victim of various factors
- outdated military doctrines
- bad military planning
- a Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces who, while having been THE hero of the major battles of WW-I, did not want to have a senseless Verdun and did not see any real chance in the war effort. Maréchal Pétain therefore, against the will of the government, surrendered.

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Note to Yugoslavia if any of it is left- disband useless standing army- adopt a citizens army ala Swiss, and you might have a better chance when US decides to invade you again. Better yet get some nukes. Swiss also needs them badly if you don't have them. Then nobody will invade you forever.
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Yugoslavia -- Serbia+Montenegro -- Serbia did/does NOT have a professional army but a militia army. And they were NOT invaded by anybody, but that splendid army became victim of the disastrous policies of their state-leadership.
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> When you deplore the surrender of President Milosevic and have tears about him, you most possibly also tearfully deplore the moment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cT_GKouAJA
when Gross-Admiral Karl von Dönitz had to take over ("unser Führer ist gefallen") and the final surrender of the German Wehrmacht
-
Here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sB9je...eature=related
the video about the, according to your logic, "deplorable" signing of the unconditional surrender of the commanders of the Wehrmacht

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  #990  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:36
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

For the benefit of late-joiners to this thread...



That Fireams Initiative Debate so far:


  • I'm not listening to you. Vote "Yes"!

  • I'm not listening to you. Vote "No"!

  • Err, that's it.

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  #991  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If 300 was really the number of people being shot by others I would most likely agree with you. But it is not. The Federal Statistics Office has published the data for the last few years on their website (Link to Excel file). E.g. in 2008 there were 259 people killed by gunfire but 239 of those were suicides.
That means that not 300 but 20 people were actually shot by someone else in 2008 which sounds a lot less scary to me. BTW the victims of the 'murder-suicides' you mentioned before would also fall into the category of those 20 victims except for the person actually killing herself.
Does that include Murder-suicide we had one or two of those incidents in our vicinity, but not in the same year.
  #992  
Old 08.02.2011, 23:03
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If 300 was really the number of people being shot by others I would most likely agree with you. But it is not. The Federal Statistics Office has published the data for the last few years on their website (Link to Excel file). E.g. in 2008 there were 259 people killed by gunfire but 239 of those were suicides.
That means that not 300 but 20 people were actually shot by someone else in 2008 which sounds a lot less scary to me. BTW the victims of the 'murder-suicides' you mentioned before would also fall into the category of those 20 victims except for the person actually killing herself.

Trying to reduce suicides by banning guns is just plain stupid and useless because it just doesn't work as there are so many other ways to kill oneself.


Yeah, I know that many Swiss (just like you) don't realize that they're about to give up one of their essential rights, but that doesn't change the fact that they're giving it up. I just hope that they won't regret it later...

Oh, and I'm 100% Swiss by the way.
What you describe as an "essential right" to me always was a definite unwelcome duty and burden and nuisance. I do not believe you that a majority of members of the Army are so happy about that duty. Sure, the possibility to deposit the weapons in a Zeughaus sounds nice, but this in reality, in view of the opening hours and the procedures is NOT what is required.
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Old 08.02.2011, 23:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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... The possibility to deposit the weapons in a Zeughaus sounds nice, but this in reality, in view of the opening hours and the procedures is NOT what is required.
You still have one more alternative. You can always put your weapons down and hide in bomb shelters. No need to resort to keeping firearms anywhere...
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Old 09.02.2011, 00:03
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Does that include Murder-suicide we had one or two of those incidents in our vicinity, but not in the same year.
Suicides are counted as suicides. Murders are counted as 'Other deaths by gunfire' ('Andere Schusswaffen-Todesfälle') - for the statistics it makes no difference whether the murderer kills himself afterwards or not.

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What you describe as an "essential right" to me always was a definite unwelcome duty and burden and nuisance.
Well, you're talking about the duty to store the personal army rifle at home.

I'm talking about the right to buy and own guns.

Two totally different things. Unfortunately they have been combined into the same initiative.

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  #995  
Old 09.02.2011, 00:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Not that I get a vote but this I think is the view that has formed in my head.

If I did get a vote, it would be No to the initiative, for one very simple reason. I don't see enough definition in the phrases (who wants vs. who needs a weapon, collector, regular shooter, etc.) Now I am sure those exist but honestly I think that people should have the right to own arms if they can demonstrate that they are of good standing in the community.

Perhaps it is just my fault for not having done enough research about each side of this initiative but just for what I have seen here and briefly spoken to people about, the principle is nice but I see loads of possible issues with the implementation.

Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve niether but we must at the same time remember that a liberties are something that are only given to people in our society that we believe are able to live up to them.
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  #996  
Old 09.02.2011, 00:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You still have one more alternative. You can always put your weapons down and hide in bomb shelters. No need to resort to keeping firearms anywhere...
No, you do not

- You cannot enter bomb-shelters in peacetime
- You are not allowed to "put down your firearms
- By military regulation, you are required to take your weapon
home within an "appropriate time" after the last service
  #997  
Old 09.02.2011, 01:03
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Heh, heh, a sly old fox was he not? Great link- Can you link to the English transcript for that speech? my German is pitiful sorry.

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General Guisan was fluent in French and German (incl Swiss-German) and also had some knowledge of English and Italian, but while I suppose there to be an Italian transcript or even an original Italian speach, I heavily doubt that an English version of any kind exists
Allow me...

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Old 09.02.2011, 01:06
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Amazing ! Sir Winston indeed was a splendid orator !
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Old 09.02.2011, 04:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Me-And by "heavy social controls" .. do your police bash your head in and taser (electrocute/shock, sometimes resulting in death) you for fun after a "traffic stop?" Do your police shoot 13 year old boys in the back, live ammo, resulting in death, no punishment of course? I recall the police in Mass shooting a young (unarmed, peaceful) woman to death in the streets.

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Can't help much that the police must assume everyone to be armed.
That says something about you cyrus when you defend/justify the police for shooting and killing a 13 year old boy (Sammy Weaver)and killing an young adult lady on the streets of Massachusetts. If you are defending and promoting that kind of "freedom?" and you vote for it, you might get it. Maybe not. Maybe there are no people in Swiss who want to shoot women and children. But there are in America and they work as "Law Enforcement Officers" I can tell you only that.

But BTW who cares what (you say) the police "assume?" are they public servants ala Swiss and Germany, decent respectable humans who do their jobs and help preserve law and order, or are they supposed to be steroid addled control freaks who taze housewives and shoot young boys in the back? (That describes America btw) because they "assumed" something? I guess??? (Disjointed thought. sorry_)

Me-You don't know what "heavy social controls" are because you live in the freest country in the world.

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You've never been here, have you?
No. Thank you for your question. I didn't have enough $$$ as a poor US dollar holder, so I had to do my roving mostly in Germany, little France, Austria, and Italy as well, among others, and as I observe and admire Swiss from a distance as well. I can tell you-- physically coming from America to Germany it's like leaving a prison and entering your freedom, and I personally believe Swiss even more free than Deutschland.

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Makes me wonder if someone, somewhere has shone a large searchlight onto some clouds with a silhouette of a rifle on it from the way some of the posters appeared on here.
"Hay-ulp, they're traina tek away mah guns!"
If you are an Australian perhaps you should withhold comment, Australians have already surrendered their guns and their freedom. I wonder what it's like to stand in a line with other slaves and turn in your arms. Soviets know what it is like. Australians know the feeling, I never can experience this feeling. (If you are Swiss I will apologize, but Aussies have nothing to say in this matter)

Me-
A- Peaceful Swiss, murder rate lowest any country on Planet Earth...

Swiss people are smartest and most peaceful on Earth...

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...and therefore guns are needed?

NRA/KKK propaganda is not working too well in europe...
Dear Mr. Osueco- could you please help me determine which NRA (American pro-gun freedom organization) KKK (American racist pro-white nationalist kind of illegal white sheet organization) which NRA/KKK propagandist crafted these repulsive words: "Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with your bayonets. No Surrender. Fight to the death."

Who was that racist who said that?? Why don't you denounce him sir

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People who get emotional about firearm ownership freak me out.

A "yes" vote for me.
Are you Swiss? Were your forefathers talking "fight to the death, fight with your bayonets no surrender." and now just 70 years later I come on here, inspired and created by your Swiss tradition of armed neutrality (armed) neutrality with a little cheerleading for you to continue in your ways which personally inspire me, and that "freaks you out?" This is an uphill battle lol.

But if you are Swiss I take my hat off to you. I think Switzerland is awesome no matter what.
  #1000  
Old 09.02.2011, 04:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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What you describe as an "essential right" to me always was a definite unwelcome duty and burden and nuisance. I do not believe you that a majority of members of the Army are so happy about that duty...
I believe this is a popular sentiment among the Swiss today. The generations since WWII have gradually come toward this view, as there has been less and less of an identifiable external threat, and in the face of that, the Swiss tradition (and constitutional mandate) of armed neutrality (via mandatory military service) has seemed ever more superfluous. Whether it's a realtistic, noble sentiment for all time or a form of near-sightedness remains to be seen.

But I really think Wolli's comment (above) is representative of a substantial portion of the population, especially towards the younger end of the spectrum. I think a good many contemporary Swiss either believe what's left of their long-ago-hard-won-but-inherited liberty faces no immediate threat (and maybe it doesn't), or that it isn't worth defending (maybe because they see it as a 'given'), or some combination.

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...seriously even if the NWO and its black helpicopters came for your town, how long do a bunch of pistol-armed nutjobs think they could hold them off?
That line of reasoning didn't seem to work for the "pistol-armed nutjobs" of the Warsaw Uprising, as they fought the NWO of their day — nor, for that matter, did the rest of Europe's resistance succumb to such a defeatist perspective while they were being reduced to "pistol-armed nutjobs" in opposition to that same NWO during some years of uncertainty. (But "that'll never happen here"... )
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