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Old 09.02.2011, 05:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Dear Mathnut- are you American? if so we shouldn't clutter up a Swiss discussion board with our personal American chatter. This is a Swiss board(I can be corrected here but that was my impression?)~~~ the only thing that matters on this board and in Swiss is what the Swiss think and have to say, and they are nice enough to let some auslanders (ouch) pipe in as fans.

But- I can't help myself, so: You seem to be disabusing me of opinions which I simply do not have. It's like you are talking to what you believe to be a stereotype "typical neo-con Mercan." And personally I think they are a bunch of total idiots, so why should I defend them? Who are you addressing? You should find some Neo-con Mercan, and explain everything to him. I don't know what you are talking about

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Even the parts that are scenically most like Vermont - the prealpine region, characterized by small agriculture and light manufacturing - have 5 to 10 times the population density of Vermont.
See you're talking population density and something about the plains, I'm talking about the struggle for freedom. Patrick Henry stuff. Not statistician stuff. If you want to talk numbers let's talk about the muzzle velocity of a .308 coming out of an FAL with a 20" barrel. (22" I forget?) How do you compare the SIG 550 with the FAL? Would you rather use an FAL if you had the choice? And who switched to .223 anyway? I don't like .223s I would rather use a .308 any day. How come the Swiss don't seem to need scopes? How can you see out 300 yards with no scope?

Sorry, I read your post but snipped some....

Before I even quote you do you recall the Mayflower compact had some exceedingly lovely and eloquent discourse about their devotion to the Liberty of themselves and their ~society. This is from memory am I right?
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I stand by that, but what I meant with my previous post is that - contrasting Massachusetts and Vermont solely with one another for a minute - Massachusetts was settled by Puritans, right? (yes agreed) Extreme conformism. Religious freedom but only on the colony/community level; individual liberty thoroughly subordinated to whatever the community decides is proper behavior. Cotton Mather, blue laws, Salem witch hunt.
AHA- Salem witch hunt you're busted-- show me any kind of sanctimonious
Cruel, murderous type of "culture" in Swiss history, where a Jim Jones type religious dictator quenches his personal blood lust in the, well, blood of his own country(women).. That is Puritanism and US Civil War and America bombing Afgan Weddings today with killer drone bombs, and we preach to the world how we are saving everybody while we murder them. That is America/Puritanism. But that is not (microcosm Vermont) and it is not Southern Dixie culture either. I maintain it is not Switzerland at all. Am I right or wrong? Where in Swiss culture I ask you is "Puritanism?"

What you call "Puritanism" in burning innocent women at Salem(Mass lol not Vermont) and Waco, I agree also Lincoln/ kill the plains indians/ bomb Belgrade/ Murder Afgans at weddings as psy-war/ torture the helpless at Abu-Graibe. That is America. That is Puritanism. That is not Switzerland. (That is just my opinion, am I right or wrong?)

Swiss "Puritanism" -- not blasting your stereo in your neighbors window.. sounds like civilized cultured living to me. Sounds like neighbors getting along, Vermont style. Am I wrong here? I mean that is a good thing? no?

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Don't get me wrong, Switzerland is a great place to live if your idea of 'living' involves a lot of going with the flow, learning the Swiss rules and playing by them, moderating your freewheeling swashbuckling liberty lifestyle down to a few harmless and socially acceptable eccentricities. Mine does and so I think it's fantastic. Clean, safe, quiet, central, everything I want. It is just weird to find the country constantly held up as a shining example of conservatism/libertarianism/minimal government when it so patently is not.
Really? "Freewheeling swashbuckling Liberty lifestyle" ?? Who wants to live near some freaks like that? I just want a nice quite Jeffersonian freedom to co-exist peacefully with my neighbors, and not have some government goon tazing housewives and shooting children and killing my dogs. If the Swiss knew what sport American police had of shooting other peoples family pets and laughing about it, you would be amazed. I can see Swiss don't believe this, and the other poster dismissed all my examples as "mistakes happen." I am not talking about mistakes, I am talking about direct shots to the head and back etc. Men, Women, children, dogs.
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OK, classical liberal it is then - sorry. The "USSA" thing threw me off; in my experience it's more popular in neocon circles.
To call me a "neo-con" who are the ultimate traitors and sheep, is the lowest insult you can deal me. You must truly consider me an imbecile.
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As an aside, how do you know you were supposed to be born in Switzerland? "There was a mix-up"? What kind of mix-up? Sorry, it's an impertinent question, I know - but I'm trying to imagine - some "pregnant woman gets lost in airport, boards wrong flight, gives birth in wrong country" scenario maybe. (No disrespect to your mother, of course.)
No, in fact I am ashamed to say I have no Swiss blood or heritage, but the French/German blood, general enthusiasm for firearms ala Swiss, love of liberty ala all humanity. I just have to believe somehow there must have been a mix-up for me to be born in sheeplandia with these goats all about me.

"Where Liberty dwells, there is my home"
Benjamin Franklin
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  #1002  
Old 09.02.2011, 06:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Dear Mathnut- are you American? if so we shouldn't clutter up a Swiss discussion board with our personal American chatter. This is a Swiss board(I can be corrected here but that was my impression?)~~~ the only thing that matters on this board and in Swiss is what the Swiss think and have to say, and they are nice enough to let some auslanders (ouch) pipe in as fans.
You are mistaken.

Now, if you had shown the simple courtesy of actually reading a little bit more of the forum before piping in with your ill-informed opinions about a country you clearly know hardly anything about, let alone having visited, then you might have worked that out for yourself.

Many people on this board are sick and tired of "single-issue posters" who join the board for the sole purpose of lambasting us with their ignorant drivel from their keyboards on the other side of the world, whether it be to tell us how wonderfully free this country is (it isn't), to lambast us for betraying our heritage (since hardly any of us are Swiss, that's something of a joke), or generally lecture us about whatever their personal pet-obsession is.

We live here. You don't. You haven't even visited this country as a weekend tourist. Don't presume, therefore, to suggest that you know more about this country than we do.

Now go and read a bit more of the forum and contribute to other threads, perhaps about where to locate brown sugar in Zurich, or how to handle your health insurance claim, or expect to be treated as the rude interloper that you are.

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  #1003  
Old 09.02.2011, 06:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

OldFox, you're mixing up several quite different notions of liberty. That's an understandable error since they are pretty mixed in American political culture at large these days; however, if you're interested in tracing the strands - in understanding why "Jeffersonian liberty" is reasonably synonymous with Patrick Henry liberty but not at all synonymous with Mayflower Compact liberty - then I highly recommend the book Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fisher. Don't let the length scare you, it's quite readable.

As for the Puritanism in Switzerland - have you read about Calvin and Zwingli? at all? That wasn't what I was talking about though. You seem to have pretty comprehensively missed my point. Rather than particular religious views or practices, I was talking about a culture grounded on the idea of freedom to do the right thing, believe the right thing - but the "right thing" as established by the community rather than the individual. Individual dissenters from the communal ideal were dealt with harshly. (Why do you think Rhode Island was founded?) Of course that was 250 years ago and of course the Massachusetts of today doesn't banish, brand or burn people for dissent or immorality. Neither does Switzerland of today. In both cases though, the reformers' culture has left its mark on today's.

I could go on but I get the strong sense I'm wasting my time. Have a nice day!
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  #1004  
Old 09.02.2011, 07:02
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

This is a fight from within, like with most gun control lobies.

The anti gun people are trying to find subtle ways to get rid of firearms by whichever means possible in Swizerland.

this is the second innitiative towards their goal...

Beware
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  #1005  
Old 09.02.2011, 07:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011


Gun Control Arithmetic 101
aussieman + oldfox = twunt


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  #1006  
Old 09.02.2011, 10:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Ah, the older the fox, the less wily.
No, I'm not an Australian and even then, you don't decide who joins what debate.
Nope, I'm from Blighty, having also lived in Switzerland for a few years before moving. I'm also someone who enjoys shooting on the rare occasion that I get to. I'm qualified to instruct Scouts on air rifles, I used to be fairly handy with a .22 semi-automatic and used to long for a pop on the club's Lee-Enfield SMLE (but had to make do with a 7.62 Remington rifle, even it was a bit more comfortable on the shoulder). I've frozen my backside off on the point at Bisley in January and worked the targets in the butts.
However, I do not see gun ownership as an inalienable right - it is a privellige that one should earn by showing one can follow the law and following instruction. It is not something that should be handed out to everyone without them proving they are responsible and level-headed.
Luckily, we live in an age that if there was some sort of military invasion, communications and transport is advanced enough to get soldiers in quickly and relieve the civilian populace of the need to defend itself and be summarily executed for its trouble (which is still fine by the Geneva Convention - you might all laugh at Dad's Army, but that's would have happened to them if they had been captured in an invasion).
Anyhoo, very little of what's been argued on here in the past few days has been about the referendum itself, more "they're gunna tek away mah guns!"

As for your pitiable post comparing the Polish Underground with such brave warriors as yourself who stand guard against the NWO, the major difference is that the Wehrmacht existed, unlike your supposed foe.
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  #1007  
Old 09.02.2011, 10:35
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Yeah, I know that many Swiss (just like you) don't realize that they're about to give up one of their essential rights, but that doesn't change the fact that they're giving it up. I just hope that they won't regret it later...
So the Swiss are blind to this while only you are enlightened? Oh please...

We know what we are doing. And whether YES or NO, we will still have our shooting clubs and collectors. I am just glad that a significant portion of this country (maybe nearly half) have at least considered the issue of safety in the home unlike another country whose citizens seem to follow this thread rather closely.
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  #1008  
Old 09.02.2011, 11:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So the Swiss are blind to this while only you are enlightened? Oh please...
I haven't talked about 'the Swiss'! Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strong points, is it?

There are also many Swiss who share my point of view.

There are also a few guys I talked with that admitted that they never thought about that aspect of the initiative (giving up a right) and mentioned that they might rethink their position on the initiative.
  #1009  
Old 09.02.2011, 12:14
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Then listen up.

Firstly, since the last firearms amendment, November 09 if I recall correctly, a Waffenerwerbscien is needed for all firearm purchases. Prior to this, a Waffener was only needed for handguns, semi automatic guns and pump action shotguns. Hunting rifles could be purchased over the counter on production of an ID card.

Soldiers who have completed their reserve are entitled to keep their weapon if they so choose. Only those with a vested interest in shooting, or officers who want to keep their pistol for posterity or sentimental reasons, do do, the rest surrender them.

This initiative is targeting all shooters from existing members of the army, to retired members and shooters in general be they hunters, target shooters or collectors. The database will be wholly incomplete as not everybody will register their arms. unless one can demonstrate good reason for owning a gun, then it will be impossible to purchase one. But there are ways and means to circumvent this.

Speaking to my dealer and other friends in the club, the consensus is that this so called initiative will be the first of many, with the aim of disarming the populace.
Great mate, but I don't see one single point where current and future gun owners are being penalised.. You may not believe it, but I do not want every effing nutter to walk around with a gun, you clearly have not grasped the issue at hand.

If I want to join a shooting club, I have a reason and am able to register that with the authorities... As for the disarming of the Swiss population, if it keeps even a single nutter away from "gun-loving" Switzerland, I'll be more than happy.

If you mean to "circumvent" the gun control, you play right into the hands of the criminals - since that is where you will get your guns. Well done for having an opinion, even if it has more holes than Swiss cheese..
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  #1010  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Great mate, but I don't see one single point where current and future gun owners are being penalised.
Every single gun owner who isn't a hunter, collector or regular sports shooter is most likely to be penalised i.e. he will be forced to sell his gun(s).

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You may not believe it, but I do not want every effing nutter to walk around with a gun
Well, this has already been taken care of. Carrying permits are very hard to come by these days.
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Old 09.02.2011, 13:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Every single gun owner who isn't a hunter, collector or regular sports shooter is most likely to be penalised i.e. he will be forced to sell his gun(s).
If by penalised you mean that they will have to apply for a permit for their existing guns - I do not see an issue at all. Unless you think that a driving licence is just a way to disadvantage users of the road. Plus, if you're not using it to hunt, target shoot or for your collection, I have doubts about your intent anyway.

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Well, this has already been taken care of. Carrying permits are very hard to come by these days.
Thankfully.. this is not the wild west and you're not Wyatt Earp. You may think what you want about Swiss military, but at it has taught me that not everybody should have a gun.
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  #1012  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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As for your pitiable post comparing the Polish Underground with such brave warriors as yourself who stand guard against the NWO, the major difference is that the Wehrmacht existed, unlike your supposed foe.
That wasn't OldFox, it was me — and I was responding directly to your suggestion that those wishing to retain arms for self defense would be mere "pistol-armed nutjobs" in the face of a "NWO" (your words). That there was a Wehrmacht in the '30s and '40s and isn't one now doesn't mean there'll never be another (with another name). My point, "pitiable" as it may be, is simply that history suggests being armed makes a better resistance to tyranny than the alternative, caricatured epithets like "pistol-armed nutjobs" notwithstanding.

Last edited by Texaner; 09.02.2011 at 13:27. Reason: typo
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  #1013  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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No, in fact I am ashamed to say I have no Swiss blood or heritage, but the French/German blood, general enthusiasm for firearms ala Swiss, love of liberty ala all humanity.
I've kept out of this debate, as this is up to Swiss citizens to decide...

... but I have to respond to this.

Old Fox, like other one agenda-driven posters who have recently joined EF, you seem to have absolutely no idea what life in Switzerland is really like. On the basis of the gun issue alone, viewed through your American-based ideology, you seem to have created a mythical Alpine utopia out of whole cloth.

The real Switzerland is nothing like your fantasy of rugged individualism.

My life here in Switzerland is minutely regulated - to a point almost inconceivable to an American (of any political stripe). My neighbors have greater say over how I may use my own property than I do, I must structure my day to comply with community regulations. My neighbors feel a strong social responsibility under the notion of 'civil courage' to keep watch on one another, to control any unacceptable deviation from the norm.

In Swiss society (as I live it day in and day out) the community trumps the individual every time, the individual must bend to the will of the group. The very American concept of sacred individual rights and liberty is... well... American. It is not a fundamental part of Swiss culture as I have experienced it.

Control comes not from the black helicopters, but from the neighbor behind the twitching curtains who notes the license plates numbers of cars visiting the Quartier, who goes around measuring the height of your hedges, who calls the Animal Control office to verify that you have indeed duly registered your mutt's mandatory microchip on the national dog database. 'Big brother' isn't some remote government entity - he lives next door.



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I just want a nice quite Jeffersonian freedom to co-exist peacefully with my neighbors, and not have some government goon tazing housewives and shooting children and killing my dogs.
Speaking of the mutts, and of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...

I'm not afraid of some government goon killing my dogs, as at least a court hearing must occur before that happens. No, I'm afraid of the guy down the street killing my dogs - because he is a dog-hating nut job with a gun. He sits on his balcony waving his gun at any dog owner walking by. Nothing can be done, as his gun is legal and he has not shot anyone yet. (Apparently 'everyone knows' that he a few fries short of a picnic, though.) As I said, I really have no opinion on this referendum as I am not Swiss, and am ambivalent on the issue even in the US - but I'd be thankful if somehow someone could get that gun away from Herr Nut Job.)
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  #1014  
Old 09.02.2011, 13:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

As another American in Der Schweiz, I have to concur with this assessment. While there are certain aspects that make this a "free society" The micromanagement of my personal life and business is driving me nuts. Aft five years, we are leaving. Not just because of this, but partially so...

The utopia that you muse about does not exist in my opinion. I would much rather work to fix what is wrong in the US.

Again, this is my opinion and experience of Zurich over five years.

Fduvall

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I've kept out of this debate, as this is up to Swiss citizens to decide...

... but I have to respond to this.

Old Fox, like other one agenda-driven posters who have recently joined EF, you seem to have absolutely no idea what life in Switzerland is really like. On the basis of the gun issue alone, viewed through your American-based ideology, you seem to have created a mythical Alpine utopia out of whole cloth.

The real Switzerland is nothing like your fantasy of rugged individualism.

My life here in Switzerland is minutely regulated - to a point almost inconceivable to an American (of any political stripe). My neighbors have greater say over how I may use my own property than I do, I must structure my day to comply with community regulations. My neighbors feel a strong social responsibility under the notion of 'civil courage' to keep watch on one another, to control any unacceptable deviation from the norm.

In Swiss society (as I live it day in and day out) the community trumps the individual every time, the individual must bend to the will of the group. The very American concept of sacred individual rights and liberty is... well... American. It is not a fundamental part of Swiss culture as I have experienced it.

Control comes not from the black helicopters, but from the neighbor behind the twitching curtains who notes the license plates numbers of cars visiting the Quartier, who goes around measuring the height of your hedges, who calls the Animal Control office to verify that you have indeed duly registered your mutt's mandatory microchip on the national dog database. 'Big brother' isn't some remote government entity - he lives next door.





Speaking of the mutts, and of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...

I'm not afraid of some government goon killing my dogs, as at least a court hearing must occur before that happens. No, I'm afraid of the guy down the street killing my dogs - because he is a dog-hating nut job with a gun. He sits on his balcony waving his gun at any dog owner walking by. Nothing can be done, as his gun is legal and he has not shot anyone yet. (Apparently 'everyone knows' that he a few fries short of a picnic, though.) As I said, I really have no opinion on this referendum as I am not Swiss, and am ambivalent on the issue even in the US - but I'd be thankful if somehow someone could get that gun away from Herr Nut Job.)
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Old 09.02.2011, 13:53
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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In Swiss society (as I live it day in and day out) the community trumps the individual every time, the individual must bend to the will of the group. The very American concept of sacred individual rights and liberty is... well... American. It is not a fundamental part of Swiss culture as I have experienced it.
This is not true of "Swiss" society.

It is, however, apparently true of German-speaking Swiss society.

Sure doesn't work that way here!

Tom
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Old 09.02.2011, 13:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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That wasn't OldFox, it was me and I was responding directly to your suggestion that those wishing to retain arms for self defense would be mere "pistol-armed nutjobs" in the face of a "NWO" (your words). That there was a Wehrmacht in the '30s and '40s and isn't one now doesn't mean there'll never be another (with another name). My point, "pitiable" as it may be, is simply that history suggests being armed makes a better resistance to tyranny than the alternative, caricatured epithets like "pistol-armed nutjobs" notwithstanding.
Ah, sorry for the confusion there. I certainly didn't mean anyone who wants to retain a gun in that post - I mean the whole thing about having stupid amounts of guns for no really good reason.
While there isn't a specific threat from any one nation at the moment, you're right that there well may in the future. However, with the way war is nowadays, locals with firearms ain't going to drive any one off.
The NWO bit was in response to something from OldFox as well.
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Old 09.02.2011, 14:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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My point, "pitiable" as it may be, is simply that history suggests being armed makes a better resistance to tyranny than the alternative, caricatured epithets like "pistol-armed nutjobs" notwithstanding.
Now, I can understand the thought behind this, no issue. But would you be deterred by a gun without ammunition as well..?

It's not about reducing the army to nothing bit by bit (as some CH politicians like to keep saying), simply adapting to current realities as well as trying to reduce family murder-suicices when/if possible..
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Old 09.02.2011, 14:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If by penalised you mean that they will have to apply for a permit for their existing guns - I do not see an issue at all.
If the law follows the spirit of the initiative, no one except for those privileged groups will be able to receive a permit anymore.

Just an example: The current law contains an exception for historic guns produced before 1870. So if someone has inherited a historic gun only the rules regarding carrying gun apply. The initiative however doesn't allow such exceptions, i.e. that gun that has been owned by the family for many generations will have to go the shredder unless you're a member of the privileged groups.

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Unless you think that a driving licence is just a way to disadvantage users of the road.
No one needs a license to own or buy a car. You only need a license to drive it on public roads which is more or less the equivalent of a carrying permit for guns.

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Plus, if you're not using it to hunt, target shoot or for your collection, I have doubts about your intent anyway.
Well, I think it's none of your or the government's business why someone wants to have a gun as long as he doesn't abuse it and doesn't walk around with it in public.
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Old 09.02.2011, 14:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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No one needs a license to own or buy a car. You only need a license to drive it on public roads which is more or less the equivalent of a carrying permit for guns.
Great analogy - as we know there are loads of people who buy a car and just keep it there just in case someday they might want to do something with it.
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Old 09.02.2011, 14:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This is not true of "Swiss" society.

It is, however, apparently true of German-speaking Swiss society.

Sure doesn't work that way here!

Tom
I stand corrected.

I should have said in Schwyzer society.
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army, guns, referendum, tradition, weapons




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