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  #1021  
Old 09.02.2011, 14:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Great analogy - as we know there are loads of people who buy a car and just keep it there just in case someday they might want to do something with it.
It doesn't matter how many people actually do it. What matters is that requiring a permit to own something is a far cry from requiring a permit to use it on public roads.
  #1022  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:02
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Maybe it's (over) time to split this thread into...
  • A "Right To Bear Arms" thread

  • A "What's The Point Of An Army Chap Having A Gun Under His Bed But No Ammunition?" thread

  • A "If I Wanted To Kill Myself But Didn't Have Convenient Access To A Loaded Gun, Would I Just Give Up Or Might I Think Of Another Way To Top Myself?" thread

Just a thought...
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  #1023  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If the law follows the spirit of the initiative, no one except for those privileged groups will be able to receive a permit anymore.
So the initiative is open to interpretation and you have no hard facts. Surprise, surprise..

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Just an example: The current law contains an exception for historic guns produced before 1870. So if someone has inherited a historic gun only the rules regarding carrying gun apply.
The initiative however doesn't allow such exceptions, i.e. that gun that has been owned by the family for many generations will have to go the shredder unless you're a member of the privileged groups.
Yes, as an owner of a historic gun, you could not possibly qualify as a collector...

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No one needs a license to own or buy a car. You only need a license to drive it on public roads which is more or less the equivalent of a carrying permit for guns.
Point taken, but I would rather compare the carrying permit to a licenced/professional driver,
that has the training and equipment to actually take a car to its limits, unlike some Sunday-Nurnburgring drivers..

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Well, I think it's none of your or the government's business why someone wants to have a gun as long as he doesn't abuse it and doesn't walk around with it in public.
Absolutely and in principle, I would agree. Not in this specific case we're discussing though.
Once you are at the abuse state, it is too late.

What about duties - these usually come with rights, unless you have forgotten.
Why is it not a duty to make sure these weapons are secured at ones home? My wardrobe/chuchichaeschtli/lego box is hardly a safe...
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  #1024  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:29
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It doesn't matter how many people actually do it. What matters is that requiring a permit to own something is a far cry from requiring a permit to use it on public roads.
I'd like to own one of these prime samples of Swiss engineering skills (well, licensed from Germany).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2#Schweiz
Why do I run into admin issues left, right and centre ? I have no intention to drive it on the Swiss Highways (the vignette would ruin the look) and I am happy to keep the shells in my bike shed.
  #1025  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:43
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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So the initiative is open to interpretation and you have no hard facts.
No one has hard facts on the future law, simply because it doesn't exist yet. While the initiative is crystal clear on some points (e.g. army rifles must be stored in secure army locations, pump action guns will become illegal, federal gun database) it leaves room for interpretation in other areas (e.g. requirements to become a 'collector', requirements for sports shooters, requirements to prove the 'need' for a gun).

But why take the risk and hope for the parliament to come up with reasonable regulations when we can simply vote NO now and keep the current legislation which seems to be working just fine?

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Yes, as an owner of a historic gun, you could not possibly qualify as a collector...
I hardly believe that someone owning a single gun will qualify as a collector...

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Why is it not a duty to make sure these weapons are secured at ones home?
Don't ask me. I would be totally in favour of it.
  #1026  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Why do I run into admin issues left, right and centre ? I have no intention to drive it on the Swiss Highways (the vignette would ruin the look) and I am happy to keep the shells in my bike shed.
Have you actually tried it? Some of the decomissioned Panzer 68 have indeed been sold to private collectors.
  #1027  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Have you actually tried it? Some of the decomissioned Panzer 68 have indeed been sold to private collectors.
The weapons' initiative doesn't deal with permanently decommissioned guns. If you wanted to keep these as a purely decorative items your right to ownership would not be impacted at all.
However, I have this feeling that you want to own fully functional weapons.
  #1028  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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But why take the risk and hope for the parliament to come up with reasonable regulations when we can simply put our heads in the sand and keep ignoring that change happens, wether we like it or not..
Sorry, had to correct you there. At least we have a vote, this way we don't have to rely on politicians alone to have a say as the people*

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I hardly believe that someone owning a single gun will qualify as a collector...
What you believe will have little sway - again, no facts. And why should they not - I guess putting it over your mantelpiece would be quite convincing...

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Don't ask me. I would be totally in favour of it.
Sorry, a moment ago I thought the current legislation is just fine, I must have misread your answer..
  #1029  
Old 09.02.2011, 15:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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The weapons' initiative doesn't deal with permanently decommissioned guns. If you wanted to keep these as a purely decorative items your right to ownership would not be impacted at all.
However, I have this feeling that you want to own fully functional weapons.
They feel impotent if their weapons are not fully functional.
  #1030  
Old 09.02.2011, 16:09
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I have this feeling that you want to own fully functional weapons.
Not quite. I want to keep the right to own a gun if I should ever need one. So far I haven't seen the need and therefore I don't own one, but that may change in the future.

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  #1031  
Old 09.02.2011, 16:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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At least we have a vote, this way we don't have to rely on politicians alone to have a say as the people
Quite the opposite. If you vote NO, the current law remains in place. If you vote Yes, you buy a pig in a poke and rely on the politicians to come up with a reasonable law.

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What you believe will have little sway - again, no facts.
Well it is a fact that it is unknown yet what the law will look like. And if owning a single gun will make you a 'collector' then the law as well as the initiative is becoming a major joke IMHO.

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And why should they not - I guess putting it over your mantelpiece would be quite convincing...
And I thought you were in favor of secure storage...

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Sorry, a moment ago I thought the current legislation is just fine
It is just fine. I just didn't realize it at first.
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  #1032  
Old 09.02.2011, 16:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Dear Mathnut- are you American? if so we shouldn't clutter up a Swiss discussion board with our personal American chatter. This is a Swiss board(I can be corrected here but that was my impression?)~~~ the only thing that matters on this board and in Swiss is what the Swiss think and have to say, and they are nice enough to let some auslanders (ouch) pipe in as fans.

But- I can't help myself, so: You seem to be disabusing me of opinions which I simply do not have. It's like you are talking to what you believe to be a stereotype "typical neo-con Mercan." And personally I think they are a bunch of total idiots, so why should I defend them? Who are you addressing? You should find some Neo-con Mercan, and explain everything to him. I don't know what you are talking about
If you don't want to be tarred with the Neo Con brush then you had better avoid using their jargon and talking points. Oh, and I am a 'merecun.

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Sorry, I read your post but snipped some....

Before I even quote you do you recall the Mayflower compact had some exceedingly lovely and eloquent discourse about their devotion to the Liberty of themselves and their ~society. This is from memory am I right?
AHA- Salem witch hunt you're busted-- show me any kind of sanctimonious
Cruel, murderous type of "culture" in Swiss history, where a Jim Jones type religious dictator quenches his personal blood lust in the, well, blood of his own country(women).. That is Puritanism and US Civil War and America bombing Afgan Weddings today with killer drone bombs, and we preach to the world how we are saving everybody while we murder them. That is America/Puritanism. But that is not (microcosm Vermont) and it is not Southern Dixie culture either. I maintain it is not Switzerland at all. Am I right or wrong? Where in Swiss culture I ask you is "Puritanism?"
Switzerland went through that puritanical stage over the past few centuries. This is a much older and conservative country, than most, regardless of how it may appear on the surface to someone who hasn't lived here.

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What you call "Puritanism" in burning innocent women at Salem(Mass lol not Vermont) and Waco, I agree also Lincoln/ kill the plains indians/ bomb Belgrade/ Murder Afgans at weddings as psy-war/ torture the helpless at Abu-Graibe. That is America. That is Puritanism. That is not Switzerland. (That is just my opinion, am I right or wrong?)
Comparing Waco with Salem shows a failure to understand the forces at work in both times as well as a somewhat deliberate misinterpretation of the facts and the events that occurred.

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Swiss "Puritanism" -- not blasting your stereo in your neighbors window.. sounds like civilized cultured living to me. Sounds like neighbors getting along, Vermont style. Am I wrong here? I mean that is a good thing? no?
The Swiss way, you describe is not people getting along. It is just people following the rules. That is the way things work most times in their country. Trust me, it doesn't take long to get the hang of it. If you don't, you are in for a long and very hard ride.

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Really? "Freewheeling swashbuckling Liberty lifestyle" ?? Who wants to live near some freaks like that? I just want a nice quite Jeffersonian freedom to co-exist peacefully with my neighbors, and not have some government goon tazing housewives and shooting children and killing my dogs. If the Swiss knew what sport American police had of shooting other peoples family pets and laughing about it, you would be amazed. I can see Swiss don't believe this, and the other poster dismissed all my examples as "mistakes happen." I am not talking about mistakes, I am talking about direct shots to the head and back etc. Men, Women, children, dogs.
To call me a "neo-con" who are the ultimate traitors and sheep, is the lowest insult you can deal me. You must truly consider me an imbecile.No, in fact I am ashamed to say I have no Swiss blood or heritage, but the French/German blood, general enthusiasm for firearms ala Swiss, love of liberty ala all humanity. I just have to believe somehow there must have been a mix-up for me to be born in sheeplandia with these goats all about me.

"Where Liberty dwells, there is my home"
Benjamin Franklin
Obviously you haven't lived here and seen the "yellow" pistols on the belts of the officers walking the streets. The Swiss police have tazers and they do use them. They just don't talk about these things as much in Switzerland as we tend to do in the USA.

Then again most Swiss know how to use firearms as they are required to have some semblance of competence by virtue of their being members of the Swiss Army.

Pleas don't idolise what you don't understand. The culture in Switzerland is different. It isn't necessarily superior. Most Nations have commited atrocities at some time in their history. This doesn't diminish their overall worth. People here just don't react well to the "give me liberty or give me death" rhetoric. If you want to be taken seriously you need to stop using it.

Good luck.
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  #1033  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Not quite. I want to keep the right to own a gun if I should ever need one. So far I haven't seen the need and therefore I don't own one, but that may change in the future.
This is the crux, no? But as far as I can see, this specific vote will not deny you that right?
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  #1034  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Quite the opposite. If you vote NO, the current law remains in place. If you vote Yes, you buy a pig in a poke and rely on the politicians to come up with a reasonable law.
Agreed! But to me, the current system is flawed already. I do see the need for action where you do not.

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Well it is a fact that it is unknown yet what the law will look like. And if owning a single gun will make you a 'collector' then the law as well as the initiative is becoming a major joke IMHO.
Do you really think it depends on the size? Of the collection I mean I guess it may also depend on the kind of weapons you want to collect... Revolvers / ancient firearms, I do not see the problem.. Uzi and other assault weapons, rather newish, I could see an issue..


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And I thought you were in favor of secure storage...

It is just fine. I just didn't realize it at first.
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Yes I am.. and as you well know, that article is an absolute joke. Tell me how many people you have served with have a gun safe at home. See why I think the system is flawed?
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  #1035  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It doesn't matter how many people actually do it.
Yes, well I think the utopian land where each and every single voice is heard is not yet upon us.

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What matters is that requiring a permit to own something is a far cry from requiring a permit to use it on public roads.
Probably because it's easier to use a weapon from the confines of your own home shooting people on public roads than it is to do so with a car?

You're going to say that this doesn't happen very often, but as you say so yourself - it doesn't matter how many people actually do it ^^
  #1036  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This is the crux, no? But as far as I can see, this specific vote will not deny you that right?
That depends on what the law will require to be considered a collector or a sports shooter.

E.g. if you need to join a shooting club and hit the range a few times per year to be considered a sports shooter I wouldn't see a problem, however if you needed to attend weekly trainings and participate in several competitions per year and therefore dedicate a big part of your free time to shooting it would be a whole different story.

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Do you really think it depends on the size? Of the collection I mean I guess it may also depend on the kind of weapons you want to collect... Revolvers / ancient firearms, I do not see the problem..
I don't know what it will depend on. I just think that it will be very tricky to find a suitable definition which creates neither a giant loophole nor huge obstacles.

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Uzi and other assault weapons, rather newish, I could see an issue..
Uzis and similar weapons are already illegal under the current law AFAIK.

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Yes I am.. and as you well know, that article is an absolute joke. Tell me how many people you have served with have a gun safe at home. See why I think the system is flawed?
Yeah, but the problem is not the law. The problem is the lack of education and enforcement.
  #1037  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Ah, the older the fox, the less wily.
No, I'm not an Australian and even then, you don't decide who joins what debate.
Nope, I'm from Blighty,
Ironic. Just like the Australians, you English have given up your rights to keep and bear arms. A traditional English right, part of "British Freedom" and either part of the Magna Cart or the unwritten English Constitution. You know more about this than I. IE- We (Americans) inherited our (right to keep and bear arms) from you, as all we are is a British Colony with British culture and bunch of imported Germans and Irish also. (Now also half the population of Mexico, Iran, India etc, game changer) But- anyway. Thank you Britain for your traditional love of Liberty, which we inherited from you, and also we had to spank you when you tried to take our guns. Why did you try to do that Gen Gage? Why did you try to take our guns?

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I do not see gun ownership as an inalienable right - it is a privellige that one should earn by showing one can follow the law and following instruction.
OK that is your opinion and honest, fair enough. You think it is better when only the "privilege" few should own guns, like in the old Soviet Days, Nazi Germany. In that sense I agree with you, gun control works~! As an aside I'm glad the Irish had the sense to keep some guns, though pitifully never enough, at least some of them always did to remind you that your predations in Ireland were/are wrong and unjust. The brave few always resist non? Thank God.

From the Turkish Massacres of the Armenian Christians, to the Gulags and the mass-killings and starvations of the Soviet Union, through Mao various killings of Chinese, in the millions, Pol Pot and the "Killing Fields", up until this very day, with a 30 or 50 some person massacre in Philippines where a government sanctioned private family/army killed a rival group who thought they won an election. Any people who allow themselves to be helpless, unarmed, will always be at the mercy of the next Lenin, Stalin,Mao, Pol Pot. I am even walking around the most famous example of an unarmed people that was led to the slaughter by "their own government" well they were kind of mentioned weren't they? How many Swiss have been slaughtered by tyrants and invaders? List them for me please. Not just you Johnny, all my detractors. The Swiss are an example of a smart, armed, present threat to any tyrant/invader/hun who is looking for a victim. Who wants to take on a mountain lion, when sheep are available? (Are the Swiss ever in any danger of mass killings? Compare that to the poor Egyptians, who are one military order away from a massacre, and they all appear to be disarmed?)

The reasons for a people to keep arms are legion, proven through history, and those who surrender their arms are then at any tyrants mercy. Ask the few million Cambodians how that worked out? (you can't because they are dead) As a modern English, perhaps you want your future victims of your empire to stay unarmed. So perhaps I can see your point, from your point of view. I just recommend your future victims, the next Belgrade per se, to always keep their guns for when the huns come a calling.
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Luckily, we live in an age that if there was some sort of military invasion, communications and transport is advanced enough to get soldiers in quickly and relieve the civilian populace of the need to defend itself and be summarily executed for its trouble ........... "they're gunna tek away mah guns!"
As a British Army, you will be the military invasion, and pity the unarmed at your mercy. As for "taking my guns away" (and I'm sure those men had hick accents. BTW do you speak high-class royal English, or street cockney sir? I speak prole American English) you tried that at Lexington and Concord, Gen Gage, though we were considered Englishmen at the time. You tried to take our guns away, we spanked you and you made your retreat. You tried again and again to get our guns for some reason (to enslave us? I wonder why?) and the wars went back and forth leading to your great spanking at New Orleans. I would just like to mention that the same American peasants are still armed today and anyone in the world home-grown tyrants included if you want to try the same game the same results await you. Our "army" has itself become useless and a beast of oppression for unfortunate foreign victims. I am sorry about that but that is above my paygrade.


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As for your pitiable post comparing the Polish Underground with such brave warriors as yourself who stand guard against the NWO, the major difference is that the Wehrmacht existed, unlike your supposed foe.
That was not me. But that is very valid. A brave few put up a good resistance at Warsaw. Good for them, better than being slaughtered with no showing. A brave few put up a good resistance to you Johnny at Lexington and Concord. A bunch of inferior peasants with unauthorized rifles. Do you remember how that worked out?

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I am just glad that a significant portion of this country (maybe nearly half) have at least considered the issue of safety in the home unlike another country whose citizens seem to follow this thread rather closely.
As a curious aside, in my state in USSA, most of the "accidental" shootings involving children in the home alone with guns, involve children of police. Furthermore, there have been one or two mass shootings, and school shootings in the US involving children of police, using dad/grandads service pistol. (Not to mention Carl Rowan, famous anti-gun news man who shot a trespassing teen with a police pistol, no punishment for him as an liberal elite)

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Not quite. I want to keep the right to own a gun if I should ever need one. So far I haven't seen the need and therefore I don't own one, but that may change in the future. E.g. if I wouldn't live in a centrally located apartment anymore but in a remote single-family house I might change my mind.
I respect your right to keep and bear arms. That is the way to go, not to force anyone to do anything, just let everyman have his rights, and I respect your rights bro! It's a human right, it's in the Constitution baby!!

And another poster was rebuking my love of "rugged individualism?" WT*?? Please find a post where I mention rugged individualism?? Only thing some people can do is create a straw-man, and explain their silly notions about their own straw man. What gives?

It is my personal opinion, that Swiss is the most free country in the world. That is just an opinion. If you think my opinion is wrong OK. Say it. You tell me what country is more free than Swiss.

I believe statistics and history will prove that Swiss is the most crime free, and safest country on Earth, due to their high level of civilized, peaceful ~~nature, and voluntary non-participation in wars, and readiness (armed) to repel borders. Viva Switzerland!

Did the vote already happen? Who won? Are you keeping your guns? I guess I'll be the last to know.

"Fight to your last cartridge, then fight with bayonets. No surrender. Fight to the death." Gen Henry Guisan 1940
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Old 09.02.2011, 18:07
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I believe this is a popular sentiment among the Swiss today. The generations since WWII have gradually come toward this view, as there has been less and less of an identifiable external threat, and in the face of that, the Swiss tradition (and constitutional mandate) of armed neutrality (via mandatory military service) has seemed ever more superfluous. Whether it's a realtistic, noble sentiment for all time or a form of near-sightedness remains to be seen.

But I really think Wolli's comment (above) is representative of a substantial portion of the population, especially towards the younger end of the spectrum. I think a good many contemporary Swiss either believe what's left of their long-ago-hard-won-but-inherited liberty faces no immediate threat (and maybe it doesn't), or that it isn't worth defending (maybe because they see it as a 'given'), or some combination.

That line of reasoning didn't seem to work for the "pistol-armed nutjobs" of the Warsaw Uprising, as they fought the NWO of their day nor, for that matter, did the rest of Europe's resistance succumb to such a defeatist perspective while they were being reduced to "pistol-armed nutjobs" in opposition to that same NWO during some years of uncertainty. (But "that'll never happen here"... )
I am absolutely in favour of also Switzerland turning towards a fully professional army, for various reasons :
- the infrastructural costs will be much smaller
- the permanent burden on the economy with the enormous absences of much of the workforce will disappear
- the total costs will not be much lower, but a bit lower for sure
- a professional army (well armed and organized of course) will have the ability to react far speedier than the present militia, and the land-area will not be overfilled by soldiers standing on each others' feet. True, already now, most mobilisation-plans of course are not full but part mobilisation (sektorieller K-Mob)
- and a professional army will not make people as angry as the present stuff, as only people wanting to go will be in the armed forces. And if you fear a coup-d'etat a question: how many military take-overs happened in Britain since 1945 ? or in the USA since 1975 ? or in France in the past 5 years ?
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Old 09.02.2011, 18:10
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Just like the Australians, you English have given up your rights to keep and bear arms. A traditional English right, part of "British Freedom" and either part of the Magna Cart or the unwritten English Constitution.
Not as far as I understand....don't think there was ever a right to bear arms in England.

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We (Americans) inherited our (right to keep and bear arms) from you, as all we are is a British Colony with British culture and bunch of imported Germans and Irish also.
So, NO.

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Thank you Britain for your traditional love of Liberty, which we inherited from you, and also we had to spank you when you tried to take our guns. Why did you try to do that Gen Gage? Why did you try to take our guns?
Because of your attitude towards guns.

Now, just a quick wrap-up. I actually personally do believe in the right to bear arms. I also believe in a societies requirement to make the enviroment for their cititzens as safe as is reasonable.

I however don't believe in your arguments. Sorry, but you are not actually helping my cause here. If I could vote, I would vote NO but understand that many of the people that voted NO with me are the people that we should actually be protecting society against although not many on the YES side would fall into that category.
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Old 09.02.2011, 18:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This is not true of "Swiss" society.

It is, however, apparently true of German-speaking Swiss society.

Sure doesn't work that way here!

Tom
Possibly not in the Ticino, but clearly true in the Romandie, at least in most respects. So that it is true in more than 93% of this country
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