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  #1041  
Old 09.02.2011, 18:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Seems most Brits here would love for the Swiss to get rid of their gun's...

They didn't have the balls to stand up to their government...

Switzerland should not fall into the same trap as many other countries...
  #1042  
Old 09.02.2011, 18:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If you don't want to be tarred with the Neo Con brush then you had better avoid using their jargon and talking points. Oh, and I am a 'merecun.
Oh come now sir! The stuff I am talking about here would horrify any war mad, neo-con, jingo support the troops sheeplet. Read a Bill Kri$tal article and compare it to anything I ever said in my life. 100% opposing sides. To be a neocon you have to hate Moslems, dislike all things German, Support financial shake-down of Swiss forever and continued extorting them for $$$, love all military spending, worship the police state at home and the military empire abroad and never question military spending. Twice because military spending is that important.

Me-AHA- Salem witch hunt you're busted-- show me any kind of sanctimonious
Cruel, murderous type of "culture" in Swiss history, where a Jim Jones type religious dictator quenches his personal blood lust in the, well, blood of his own country(women)..


Thee-
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Switzerland went through that puritanical stage over the past few centuries. This is a much older and conservative country, than most, regardless of how it may appear on the surface to someone who hasn't lived here.
Your answer here sir is empty, like your jargon. Since your side brought up Puritans, and called the Swiss Puritans.... Puritan/Salem (which Idea I reject)I asked if you could show me an episode in Swiss history, where any Swiss government, judge or authority burned innocent women at the stake or at all? I have still received no answer.
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Comparing Waco with Salem shows a failure to understand the forces at work in both times as well as a somewhat deliberate misinterpretation of the facts and the events that occurred.
More jargon from you with no meaning, except to say that your opinion of me is that I fail to understand facts and misinterpret deliberately. America then- Salem, bloodlust, murder, officials burn women at the stake. America now- Waco, bloodlust, murder, officials shoot and burn women (and men and children) in a building. I guess I just don't understand the facts? How many Swiss Men women and children have Swiss federal police burned to death in zany and harmless religious cults? Could you please help me deliberately interpret that, enlighten me since I have a poor ability to understand.

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The Swiss way, you describe is not people getting along. It is just people following the rules. That is the way things work most times in their country. Trust me, it doesn't take long to get the hang of it........
I will agree to all descriptions of the Swiss way, as long as they observe and describe Swiss nature, culture, the way they have of interrelating with each other and the world which has created the best, most beautiful, safe, peaceful, free and highly well-armed population. "getting along" "following the rules" I'm not disagreeing, I'm including getting along and following the rules. I have to observe the Swiss rules are more of natural law (do not harm thy nieghbor? do not blast your sterio in your neighbors window?) do not shoot your neighbors dog) and this is the foundation of Western, Hellenic culture and freedom, and not some tyrants whim like say the "rules' in North Korea or America. (bow down before your leader slave)

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Obviously you haven't lived here and seen the "yellow" pistols on the belts of the officers walking the streets. The Swiss police have tazers and they do use them. They just don't talk about these things as much in Switzerland as we tend to do in the USA.
Still I see no example of where the Swiss police shoot children in the back, or taze housewives driving their son to soccer practice (was that Canada?) but US police are tazer happy, not to mention our New border screeners who sexually molest most passengers, including children. do the swiss border guards do this?
...........
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Pleas don't idolise what you don't understand. The culture in Switzerland is different. It isn't necessarily superior. Most Nations have commited atrocities at some time in their history.
Yeah but not the Swiss, is that your point? I do idolize what I do understand, and I hate to see my idol falling. Please Switzerland, defend your freedom forever. No Surrender. Fight to the death.
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This doesn't diminish their overall worth. People here just don't react well to the "give me liberty or give me death" rhetoric. If you want to be taken seriously you need to stop using it.

Good luck.
What doesn't diminish their overall worth? Your point makes no sense at all sir except for the Patrick Henry part-

Unfortunately for me I think you may be right about that part.

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This is the crux, no? But as far as I can see, this specific vote will not deny you that right?
See this is where, as an outsider who has seen this war in my own sad tragic enslaved homeland (USSA) I can tell you that each "reasonable regulation" and "common-sense registration" scheme cooked up is just the first nail in the coffin of your soon-to-die liberty. The NGOs and your tyrants and the world tyrants know that they can't give you a vote that says "do you want all your guns banned entirely right now?" You would say no (I hope) But if they say "Hey- lets have this little regulation, and just ban these bulky, burdensome military guns from the home, who wants the hassle? You can keep some of the other guns, if you can afford this license, but well talk about that later!" Then 3 years later another, then another law and soon it's like Australia or Cuba hello? (well that was sudden) I tire of this importation, obviously my ability to speak my own native language is failing.. Please Swiss, don't give up the fight. Think of the poor disarmed Egyptians struggling and dying for freedom.. You were born free and you have freedom today and you're trying to vote it away WTF over? It is so tragic seeing the world's little oasis of freedom casting freedom aside and spurning Liberty because a SIG 550 is just so inconvenient and boring?? Do you know how much money we slaves in America have to pay to have 6 or 7 AKs (semi-auto only)in our house?? They don't give them away here we have to pay for them!!!

And why are a bunch of American and British Socialists arguing with me on a Swiss board? Address the Swiss or let them speak for God's sake.
  #1043  
Old 09.02.2011, 19:01
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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They didn't have the balls to stand up to their government...
Ahem... what should they have done about it? started a revolution? It's not like they had the luxury of being able to vote on it like we Swiss do.
  #1044  
Old 09.02.2011, 19:06
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And why are a bunch of American and British Socialists arguing with me on a Swiss board? Address the Swiss or let them speak for God's sake.
1. Because we like the Swiss socialists? Although I think you would find that socialism is more of a philosophy than a political system, and is infact prevalent and useful in most moderate societies. The more you get to know Switzerland the more you see that it is both at the same time one of the most socialist and at the same time one of the capitalist societies that I have ever experienced.
2. This is not a "Swiss" board. It is infact what is says on the tin, a board where people linked to Switzerland (expats and a few Swiss, but generally people that have lived or live in the country) get together to talk about things that are relevant to Swtizerland.
3. I don't think you are going to get anybody to back down (Swiss or not) by invoking any gods.
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  #1045  
Old 09.02.2011, 19:22
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Not as far as I understand....don't think there was ever a right to bear arms in England.
Could any Englishman please help Mr. Wheeler?

Up until the 1910 ir 1920s no English gentleman would travel without his pocket pistol, (OK slight exaggeration) guns were common and freely held by the citizenry. It has gone south in England sadly since, as in Australia and USSA also.

I could find only this:

"Last summer, for example, an argument started on the Cybershooters List over the extent to which the Bill of Rights 1689 guaranteed the right to keep and bear arms. ".....
"Again, I am something of a legal antiquarian - yet I have never found a complete edition of Sir William Blackstone's great Commentaries on the Laws of England, first published in the 1760s. These are one of the main influences on the American Constitution. They were a powerful force in shaping understanding of the English Constitution well into the 19th century."

"Our researches confirmed that the lawful forms of redress which are available to subjects whose rights have been infringed are as specified in Blackstones Commentaries on the Laws of England:

“The fifth and last auxiliary right of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and degree, and such as are allowed by law. Which is also declared by the same statute 1 W.& M. st. 2, c.2, and it is indeed a public allowance under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self- preservation..."

http://magnacartasocietyblog.blogspo...t-history.html

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Seems most Brits here would love for the Swiss to get rid of their gun's...

They didn't have the balls to stand up to their government...

Switzerland should not fall into the same trap as many other countries...
Aussie I agree with you on all points you have made, and I guess I am just saying the same warning you are to the Swiss: Never give up your freedom, never surrender your arms! Viva Switzerland!!

Australia and US really are brothers, same type British colony in the new world, except you guys eat that yucky vegemite
  #1046  
Old 09.02.2011, 19:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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And why are a bunch of American and British Socialists arguing with me on a Swiss board? Address the Swiss or let them speak for God's sake.
OK - one more time.

EF is a forum for english speakers living in Switzerland.

It's primary purpose is the search for that most elusive of holy grails, brown sugar. We are mostly expats of varying flavors, but there are also several English speaking Swiss members here as well. We very much value 'local' contributors as we suspect that they know where the hidden cache of said brown sugar is kept and if we continue to be nice to them they just may let the secret slip.



Despite, or perhaps because of, our lack of rose colored glasses, which has lead many an expat to develop a pretty good understanding of How Things Really Are, many of us have come to love the kind people who have extended a welcoming hand to us, and really do appreciate the many things that make our host country a pretty nice place to be.

Many of us have been here a very long time - it might behoove you to stop with the US centric rhetoric, open your eyes and ears, and learn a little about the real Switzerland.

Just sayin'.
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  #1047  
Old 09.02.2011, 19:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Seems most Brits here would love for the Swiss to get rid of their gun's...

They didn't have the balls to stand up to their government...

Switzerland should not fall into the same trap as many other countries...
The Brits repeatedly since WWII "retired" their entire government, something the Swiss have not done since 1847. The last time, some people here "stood up" to their government (Zurich 1918), such uprisings were crushed by the army on order from the Federal government and in co-ordination with Cantonal governments.

And your idea that the Swiss population would "stand up" against either Cantonal governments or the Federal government, with their ammunition-less military guns is rather bizarre

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Old 09.02.2011, 19:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Seems most Brits here would love for the Swiss to get rid of their gun's...

They didn't have the balls to stand up to their government...

Switzerland should not fall into the same trap as many other countries...
To be fair Aussiman most pistol shooters did fight the last ban in the UK voraciously, but we couldn't vote - only lobby. In addition we could only lobby with one hand behind our backs due to the antis in the UK using highly emotive rhetoric surrounding the terrible Dunblane massacre, i.e. we could not afford to be seen as emotional. We were between a rock and a hard place. In the end it was a walk over for the antis as they verbally assaulted every shooting enthusiast who dared speak up publically and they were not once brought to book for it.

So it makes me wonder if there is some anti-gun control element at work in the background here in Switzerland as there is in the EU. They know who they are. The EU is certainly against switzerland's liberal and responsible current laws, this is obvious from the firearm law changes in Switzerland forced onto them in order to join Schengen.

I'm a guest in this wonderfull country so I'm not going to try and tell anyone here how to vote, I'm merely, like Aussiman, someone who has seen it all before. So before voting please give it a little more thought. Voting YES will take away something from the people (it will not give you any protection whatsoever, in fact the reverse), voting NO will not.
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  #1049  
Old 09.02.2011, 19:52
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Could any Englishman please help Mr. Wheeler?

Up until the 1910 ir 1920s no English gentleman would travel without his pocket pistol, (OK slight exaggeration) guns were common and freely held by the citizenry. It has gone south in England sadly since, as in Australia and USSA also.
Hey Colin, mind helping yourself out here?
Okay, so as an Englishman (through citizenship, heritage, education and culture), indeed "any" Englishman, allow me to help out Mr. Wheeler here.
Carrying a weapon and having a right given to you to carry a weapon are two distinctly different things. In the good old days and even today, you don't need to have the goverment give you the right to have a dump, even in a nanny state like the UK is currently.
There were, as far as I can tell, for England as a country never any goverment given rights that allowed the blanket carrying of a weapon.
The magan carta says nothing about the individual right to carry a weapon.
The legal system in the UK outlawed the carrying of lethal weapons.
This is VERY different from revoking the right bear arms.

So, just because people did something in the good old days, does not mean that it was a right. Perhaps you would be good enough to determine what a right is before leaping to this sort of conclusion.
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Old 09.02.2011, 19:53
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Blah, blah, blah...
Hmm, so the Indians who drove the British out, with no guns of their own, that was a complete fluke?

The so called Revolutionary war wasn't about guns. It was about lack of representation. We weren't the only ones annoyed about what George the III was doing but we were the only ones that didn't have any say in the matter.
Try and remember that a significant number of Americans didn't want the military action that occurred.

The Irish troubles are far beyond your grasp as they have been far beyond the grasp of generations of people for quite some time. Not just an us versus them problem but a long drawn out schism in the church as well as other political mistakes and issues over centuries. I don't recall IEDs being legal or guns and yet they play a far greater role in the public consciousness regarding those matters.

Most of your examples have nothing to do with who does or doesn't own guns. Rather they have everything to do with who has the will to use the guns that they possess. All of the situations you speak of deal with the abuse and treachery of one group perpetrated on another. The issue is intimidation. If you can not act without a gun in your hand, do you think that you would be better than the thousands and millions of people who have been rounded up and slaughtered through out history? There is no difference. These people where taken by surprise and brutally vicimised. In these cases, the presence of firearms would have made little or no difference. Back to the India example, where the population that did have weapons was deliberately sidelined by the independence movement. According to your logic, those people should have failed because they refused to embrace the gun and yet India won her independence. What went wrong?
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  #1051  
Old 09.02.2011, 20:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

The Brits like the Aussie's don't live in a democracy, where the government is there for the people. the people now believe the people are there for their government.

Unlike in Switzerland where the people decide.

this system does not excist in the so called democratic world.

This argument is not realy about gun's it is about weakening the power of the people.

Every country the Brits have gone the screwed it up...
  #1052  
Old 09.02.2011, 21:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I asked if you could show me an episode in Swiss history, where any Swiss government, judge or authority burned innocent women at the stake or at all?
Last executed witch in Europe: Read and Learn.

I shan't even start on Calvin...
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  #1053  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:03
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Thanks DB ... was hoping someone would find that.

Yes Switzerland was one of the last countries in Europe to stop burning women / witches, and one of the last to become a democracy in 1971.

:-)

Lisa
  #1054  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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modern English ... future victims of your empire ... from your point of view ... you will be the military invasion ...
Well, folks, this is a new one on me and I don't mind admitting it. I've met plenty of southerners who haven't entirely given up on the Civil War, but this fellow's the first American I've met who's still fighting 1812.


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It is my personal opinion, that Swiss is the most free country in the world. That is just an opinion. If you think my opinion is wrong OK. Say it. You tell me what country is more free than Swiss.
Said it already - and gave examples, depending what you mean by freedom. I could give others but it's pointless without a clear, considered answer from you as to what you feel constitutes freedom. Note particularly the adjectives: clear, considered. I won't hold my breath.

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I believe statistics and history will prove that Swiss is the most crime free, and safest country on Earth, due to their high level of civilized, peaceful ~~nature, and voluntary non-participation in wars, and readiness (armed) to repel borders. Viva Switzerland!
They don't. I am not your googlehorse though - go look it up yourself.

(And even if they did show Switzerland as the safest country on earth, they couldn't prove why. Stats demonstrate correlation, not causality. I know you said statistics doesn't interest you but that is a pretty important fact and worth however much time it takes to internalize.)

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Did the vote already happen? Who won? Are you keeping your guns? I guess I'll be the last to know.
No, vote is on Feb 13th. As mentioned in the title of this thread - and in the first post - and in every single bit of news coverage I've seen on the issue. Have you read anything on this topic that predates your own peculiar ramblings?

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And why are a bunch of American and British Socialists arguing with me on a Swiss board? Address the Swiss or let them speak for God's sake.
I'll pass over the "socialist" bit without comment, except to say that it confirms what I suspected: you really aren't reading my posts thoroughly, if at all.
As to why Americans and Brits on this board are about the only ones arguing with you - save for Wolli, the shining exception as always! - well, maybe we're the only ones with the patience to. This thread's onto its 53rd page now, kept alive mostly by single-issue obsessives such as yourself, not to put too fine a point on it. I think most of the Swiss on here probably tuned out five or six nutters ago. Very sensible people, the Swiss on here.
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  #1055  
Old 09.02.2011, 22:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Since when is Australia a democracy?

I am sure it was called the socialist democratic republic of Australia last time I looked?

People have no say in any matters, just have to jump when the gov says so!

same for the Brits...
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Old 09.02.2011, 22:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I shan't even start on Calvin...
Technically one cannot blame Switzerland for Calvin's actions because
1. Calvin was French.
2. Geneva was not part of the Swiss Confederation at the time.

However in Zürich, Zwingli was responsible for the execution of a few innocent anabaptists here and there...

Last edited by Suisse2008; 09.02.2011 at 22:32. Reason: missing preposition
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Old 09.02.2011, 22:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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However in Zürich, Zwingli was responsible for the execution of a few innocent anabaptists here and there...
Yeah, but they like swimming, don't they?
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Old 09.02.2011, 22:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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same for the Brits...
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Every country the Brits have gone the screwed it up...
I think the Brits who are not part of the United Kingdom would really appreciate if you stopped lumping them all together. There are a variety of different Brit political systems and nations.
Yes, the colonial empire did a lot of damage, you won't find anybody disagreeing with that, least of all me, but please let the blame lie where it actually comes from and stop blathering on about Brits. I myself have a UK citizenship but am fully English and I think that us English were most probably to blame for a very signficant part of the problems....except of course for the excellent idea of getting rid of our undesirables to far off isloated places.
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Old 09.02.2011, 22:43
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Yeah, but they like swimming, don't they?
Don't you mean a rather deep baptism by immersion? <ducks for cover>
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Old 09.02.2011, 22:50
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

At least in those days there was no Muslim bashing - Christians had each other to beat up (drown, burn, torture and such wonderful Godly acts).
(like water on a ducks back won't work, will it?)
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