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Old 10.02.2011, 11:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Just because we love to shoot, and some nutters missuse firearms, we always have to bear the brunt of this.

when people get killed by cars, no one attacks all the car drivers???

accepted deaths... double standards more like it
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  #1082  
Old 10.02.2011, 11:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Just because we love to shoot, and some nutters missuse firearms, we always have to bear the brunt of this.
You are right, I should have referred to "gun huggers" instead of "gun nuts". Here is a fine example of that species (the guy happens to be the president of the SVP youth organization in Geneva...):
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/kultur/d...story/10837419
  #1083  
Old 10.02.2011, 13:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Sorry to be the bearer (no pun intended) of good news Colin.

"The right to bear arms was guaranteed in the 1689 Bill of Rights, in which the new King William of Orange enshrined a series of rights for his subjects - Catholics were famously excluded.
Just a couple of points about this, if Catholics were excluded, it was not a blanket set of right...but that is nitpicking.

More correctly these were the rights:
  • no royal interference with the law. Though the sovereign remains the fount of justice, he or she cannot unilaterally establish new courts or act as a judge.
  • no royal interference in the freedom of the people to have arms for their own defence as suitable to their class and as allowed by law
This is a non-interferance statement so that the monarchy will not interfere with the laws and rights of the people in this respect. I in no way allows for a blanket right to bear arms. Perhaps it protected or re-enabled some nobility or higher classes the rights to bear fire-arms or whatever but in no way did it allow the lower classes the right to just arm themselves up.

So, sorry, I am going to stick with the fact that since rights existed in England, there has never been a blanket right that allowed any citizen the right to bear arms.
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  #1084  
Old 10.02.2011, 14:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Another example of simplifying matters until they fit one's political agenda. The significance of the Bill of Rights 1689 lies in its allocation of certain powers to the parliament as opposed to the monarch. And no such right was "guaranteed" - it was subject to the rule of laws properly established by the parliament.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_t..._and_bear_arms
The US constitution and the Supreme Court might have a different understanding on this topic, but this is Switzerland, not the US. You may have a certain right in the US - if you want to enjoy that right you'll need to stay at home.
Tout d'abord, I didn't write it so I'm not simplifying anything, admittedly I selected it but not out of its context.

Secondly, I think Oxford University library is a better source of reference that Wikipedia. Don't you agree?

Thirdly, I'm not american sadly. I'm half swiss - half british.
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Old 10.02.2011, 14:45
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You are right, I should have referred to "gun huggers" instead of "gun nuts". Here is a fine example of that species (the guy happens to be the president of the SVP youth organization in Geneva...):
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/kultur/d...story/10837419
What's wrong with that? He's got nothing to hide obviously, unlike the gun control nuts hiding behind the swiss socialist parties. What a great place switzerland is for a gun control nut to operate. Yes and I use the word 'nut' here in its correct context....

"whisper, go for the gun people, whisper, we'll help you, whisper whisper, yes I know they don't pose much of a threat but.., whisper whisper...here's some money from the snowdrop apeal, whipser, the EU will give us a bit too...get them"
  #1086  
Old 10.02.2011, 14:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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"whisper, go for the gun people, whisper, we'll help you, whisper whisper, yes I know they don't pose much of a threat but.., whisper whisper...here's some money from the snowdrop apeal, whipser, the EU will give us a bit too...get them"
I smell THC, hear the whoop whoop of black helicopters and see tinfoil hats.
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Old 10.02.2011, 14:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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"whisper, go for the gun people, whisper, we'll help you, whisper whisper, yes I know they don't pose much of a threat but.., whisper whisper...here's some money from the snowdrop apeal, whipser, the EU will give us a bit too...get them"
Who's giving money to who? What's the snowdrop appeal got to do with anything?

You should get those those whispering voices checked out.
  #1088  
Old 10.02.2011, 15:07
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Secondly, I think Oxford University library is a better source of reference that Wikipedia. Don't you agree?
Scientific citation rules 101: A library is not a source. It is a collection of sources, mainly books. You can look up the sources for my quote in Wikipedia.

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Thirdly, I'm not american sadly. I'm half swiss - half british.
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I'm a classical liberal French/German, who was accidentally born far from where I was supposed to be born (Switzerland). There was a mix-up.
What's wrong with you gun huggers ? One guy "sadly" not American, another being born "accidentally" in the US, while deep down in his heart and soul he really is a true German/French/Swiss - while happily quoting General Guisan calling his people to defend their country....
  #1089  
Old 10.02.2011, 15:20
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Wrong snowdrop appeal, that one deserves some attention, but this one...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1025065.stm
  #1090  
Old 10.02.2011, 15:26
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Wrong snowdrop appeal, that one deserves some attention, but this one...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1025065.stm
The disbanded one? Who did they give money too? How did the EU get involved?
  #1091  
Old 10.02.2011, 15:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I smell THC, hear the whoop whoop of black helicopters and see tinfoil hats.
Hmm ...

http://www.iansa.org/about/members/e...est_europe.htm
  #1092  
Old 10.02.2011, 15:38
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

It's hardly the lizard people now is it?

I mean really, what a suprise, it's not exactly an unpopular idea. People don't need to be brainwashed into wanting less bloody guns in the world.
  #1093  
Old 10.02.2011, 15:52
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I smell THC, hear the whoop whoop of black helicopters and see tinfoil hats.
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The disbanded one? Who did they give money too? How did the EU get involved?
These people...

http://www.iansa.org/about/members/e...est_europe.htm

http://www.gun-control-network.org/

This is how the EU got involved, in addition to Schengen.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...guiLanguage=en

Did Switzerland get a vote on joining schengen, I can't remember?
  #1094  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:04
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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These people...

http://www.iansa.org/about/members/e...est_europe.htm

http://www.gun-control-network.org/

This is how the EU got involved, in addition to Schengen.

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...guiLanguage=en

Did Switzerland get a vote on joining schengen, I can't remember?

Yes they did vote to join. They probably wouldn't like the idea of foreigners coming across their newly opened borders with weapons either.
  #1095  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm

"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."
International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.


The US are number one in the world for the above, Switzerland number two. Those who think Switzerland have a low rate of violence need to open their eyes and look at the statistics. There is a statistical correlation between level of murder and suicide rates, and level of death by gunfire and legality of gun-ownership. There is simply NOT the level of accidental and violent death from gunfire in countries such as the UK where gun controls are stricter. Period. Look to national crime statistics for evidence.



Unless you live in the wilds and need to shoot for your food - there is absolutely NO sensible or sane reason to own a gun. People go on about freedom - freedom to kill people? Freedom to kill yourself? Freedom to have kids die from accidental gun accidents? Freedom to in a moment of madness (the legal plea in psychology for 'diminished manslaughter') pick up a gun and shoot in a conflict?


The idea of personal freedom can if one argues along such lines be taken to such extremes as to defend all kinds of damaging and criminal behavior 'because it's part of personal freedom'.


Many people seem to attach romantic ideals to gun ownership. Parties like the SVP use posters with ridiculous images suggesting we'll all be at the mercy of gun-wielding robbers if we're not armed. Such tosh. Many people with guns here keep them in the cellar so even if the highly unlikely situation of a gun wielding robber entering ones house at night manifested, people would hardly be sleeping next to their loaded rifle poised and ready to defend.



Misplaced notions of masculinity, the male defending his territory or going off hunting have also bee cited in defense of gun freedoms. Such ridiculous stereotypes seem to belong in the same place as the ones where women are barefoot, pregnant and tied to the kitchen sink. Firmly in the murky past and certainly not in a so called civilized society.


That's my take on this situation.
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  #1096  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:22
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Just because we love to shoot, and some nutters missuse firearms, we always have to bear the brunt of this.

when people get killed by cars, no one attacks all the car drivers???

accepted deaths... double standards more like it
You obviously have not lived in Switzerland. If you have, then not for long.

Car drivers get attacked on a daily basis.

The only other country in the same league is the UK as far as I can tell.
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  #1097  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:36
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

This is utter nonsence...

Why take guns away that don't do anyone harm anyone

Those of you who watch too much tv will think guns are used the way they do on tv on a daily basis... utter nonsence

Get rid of them, you only hurt those who like to have them.
Suicides will not be reduced, it is proven fact...

Do us shooters complain when you kill someone with your car?
or poisen someone?

Get real people...
  #1098  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I have been in over 16% of the world and driven in most of these countries.

I feel safer in those where people are armed... like the Swiss.

Aussies are just crazy on the roads, Brits not too bad. but these two have no idea why they realy have a government who robs them blind...
  #1099  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Those of you who watch too much tv will think guns are used the way they do on tv on a daily basis... utter nonsence
I'm puzzled, how are guns portrayed on TV on a day to day basis?

If anything, guns usually get a positive light on TV. Although they also like to give the impression that all criminals have guns.

Last edited by cyrus; 10.02.2011 at 16:56.
  #1100  
Old 10.02.2011, 16:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Do us shooters complain when you kill someone with your car?
or poisen someone?
Unlike shooters, drivers do not kill people on purpose. Poisoning I wouldn't know - but if you assert it's such a common practice as driving a car is I am going to start an initiative against it.
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