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Old 10.01.2011, 18:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I'm Swiss so I'm voting "yes". The casualities caused by these guns are usually either suicide or family arguments. I say reduce the risk of violence by keeping one less gun around. It also makes the military less responsible for any unethical use.

I realize the contra arguments are usually based around tradition. Well guess what, not all tradition is good and I believe this is a change for the better.

Last edited by olygirl; 10.01.2011 at 18:42. Reason: There's only one "e" in arguments.
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  #102  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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yes when you compare number of guns per capita.
Reducing the number of guns per capita is what the initiative is all about.
  #103  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Swiss democracy 101: This is an initiative. So if it passes, then the majority of people and of cantons want it to be that way.

What the initiative would also do away with: As a swiss or holder of a C-permit, you can go and buy a rifle (only rifles) with nothing but your ID. No background check, no nothing.
If that's what they want, I don't care. I'm playing devil's advocate for all that passes as squishy thinking.
Should the law be repealed if it is shown that the law doesn't significantly reduce suicides? Or is this more about gun control than it is about suicide? If it is, just say so.
Again, should we ban smoking, cars, and alcohol as they cause more deaths per year? Why won't anyone answer that?
  #104  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:40
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Swiss democracy 101: This is an initiative. So if it passes, then the majority of people and of cantons want it to be that way.
But people are still allowed to argue either side as well . . . That's part of democracy too.
  #105  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:46
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Probably because it had a cartouche under it? (that's a box with a belt that feeds into the gun - so even I could tell if it is loaded)

Treverus ,I think Odille refers to a assault rifle.In the military (Swiss) live amo is only permitted on rifle range or live amo exercise and are strictly supervised.Special attention is given to Loading and Unloading. Having Live amo on you or in the gun is punishing with stockade up to 10 days. A belt driven MG ,I don`t think you will ever see unsupervised,There are at least 3 guys to one MG
  #106  
Old 10.01.2011, 18:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

regarding the statistics, not everyone dies because he has been shot at... And as a personal anecdote, the weapon is sometimes "just" being used as a mean of intimidation.

Without ammunition and without extensive throwing-pistol-at-head training (easier with the rifle obviously), how is this weapon which allegedly poses no threat to anyone in this peaceful day and age going to stop the enemy invader parachuting on my balcony?

Anyway I can see that those who want this initiative to succeed should present good arguments rather than saying "it's bad, it's bad don't bother me with facts" la svp (that's probably what I'm doing with this post). But I do think you better have good reasons too to have some 100k weapons distributed throughout the country (whatever the actual death toll may be). What is the point? It is not for self protection against robbers (remember, no ammo), it's not shooting-your-way-to-assembly-point, what is this thing doing in my wardrobe? A sign of trust? ah sweet, merci governement...
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  #107  
Old 10.01.2011, 19:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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regarding the statistics, not everyone dies because he has been shot at... And as a personal anecdote, the weapon is sometimes "just" being used as a mean of intimidation.

Without ammunition and without extensive throwing-pistol-at-head training (easier with the rifle obviously), how is this weapon which allegedly poses no threat to anyone in this peaceful day and age going to stop the enemy invader parachuting on my balcony?

Anyway I can see that those who want this initiative to succeed should present good arguments rather than saying "it's bad, it's bad don't bother me with facts" la svp (that's probably what I'm doing with this post). But I do think you better have good reasons too to have some 100k weapons distributed throughout the country (whatever the actual death toll may be). What is the point? It is not for self protection against robbers (remember, no ammo), it's not shooting-your-way-to-assembly-point, what is this thing doing in my wardrobe? A sign of trust? ah sweet, merci governement...
Good Point, and a great deal of responsibility
  #108  
Old 10.01.2011, 19:41
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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But I do think you better have good reasons too to have some 100k weapons distributed throughout the country (whatever the actual death toll may be). What is the point?
Er, no. You don't need to have good reasons. Switzerland is functioning pretty well as it is, so you need an argument to change anything. Especially if you want to convince the conservative crowd. The SP voters will support this anyway, so you need good arguments that convince some of the others as well...

"We always did it this way" is actually enough of an argument and with "tradition" alone could the SVP win this one - only god knows why they really had to go for the foreign criminal on the posters again... So to be honest: If there is no problem with the current situation - guns at home, but bullets locked away - then you will lose the vote. The articles on suicide have not really convinced me so far - looks like countries without guns in Asia have higher suicide rates, but nobody is trying to outlaw sushi knives. Since I am actually pro gun-control, I guess the arguments for the change will surely not convince anyone who is more conservative than me...
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  #109  
Old 10.01.2011, 19:42
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Hi,

if was permitted to vote then I will would be voting a very solid yes to this referendum, as I would do in any country --especially the USA, which believes that gun ownership is thought of as being normal. It is not normal but an accident of history.

Really, I have not yet seen an any arguement why guns at home make sense. We do not live in the wild west. I can not see any scenario where the swiss militia would ever be needed.

Have fun

Martin
  #110  
Old 10.01.2011, 19:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

OK, I made a poll: Swiss Arms Poll

Please vote in the correct category!

N.B. Who has voted, and how, is not shown (so you can vote in privacy)!

Tom
  #111  
Old 10.01.2011, 19:58
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Treverus ,I think Odille refers to a assault rifle.In the military (Swiss) live amo is only permitted on rifle range or live amo exercise and are strictly supervised.Special attention is given to Loading and Unloading. Having Live amo on you or in the gun is punishing with stockade up to 10 days. A belt driven MG ,I don`t think you will ever see unsupervised,There are at least 3 guys to one MG
Right. And this being the army - any army for that matter - everyone always sticks strictly to all rules and would never have a stupid idea... I have personally witnessed some very nervous soldier running up and down an intercity train in the search for his Stgw 90... so I could very well imagine one to forget one leaning on the outside wall of his office as well.

And when it comes to the three guys, you are right: One filming, one laughing and one handling the gun... (I hope these German gentlemen got kicked by their officers for posting this on youtube... )

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  #112  
Old 10.01.2011, 20:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I realize the contra arguments are usually based around tradition. Well guess what, not all tradition is good and I believe this is a change for the better.
Could agree more. So when are they going to give us bacon without bits bits of bone in it, cheese without holes in it, supermarkets which open on a Sunday, apartments where you can take a shower or a dump after 10pm..etc etc. Forget the guns. These are things that would really be a change for the better
  #113  
Old 10.01.2011, 20:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Hi,

if was permitted to vote then I will would be voting a very solid yes to this referendum, as I would do in any country --especially the USA, which believes that gun ownership is thought of as being normal. It is not normal but an accident of history.

Really, I have not yet seen an any arguement why guns at home make sense. We do not live in the wild west. I can not see any scenario where the swiss militia would ever be needed.

Have fun

Martin
I voted!

And to my own big surprise, I voted for the "Swiss Way". for once. a NO.
I think your argument is seeing the whole issues as one.

You say you would vote yes everywhere, especially in the USA. I deduce that the problem is more in the USA.

My justifications for the vote (it's actually a virtual vote, i'm ain't swiss I can't vote):

- The situation in Switzerland is very different than in the USA, where, I would have voted against weapons.
- In my little time in Switzerland I haven't seen any abuse or issues with guns.
- That change will, as it was said by opposition, engage more government crap, meaning more expenses, more taxes. Or more government annoyance. In theory if it would be simple as make disappears all weapons then yes, but in fact it will be "politicrap" excuse to increase taxes.
-There are more serious and important issues than guns (banks, flats, etc...)
- As it was said, the excuse of suicide is poor excuse: do suicidal people need a gun? they can choked themselve, jump the balcony, cut their veins, etc... Anyway the cause of their suicidal trend is somewhere else, removing one way of killing them will not solve their issue. We should solve their issue so they dont want to commit suicide, not removing all "tools".
- It's part of switzerland tradition and culture, which I don't always understand, but it seems to "fit" as there has been not much abuse (???)
- Again, the culture seems to make them uncapable of complaining or misbehaving it's not like far-west, etc...
-The vote "no" is temporary, maybe in 5years the culture will have change with much migrants and the weapons will then be an issue.

And the most controversial:
-Might be an argument for "population control": if some idiots shoot themselves, then its less people. That seems not nice but there are a obvious problem with over population on a world scale basis. The current trend seems to be it's good to have population growth every years. Although it means more consumption, use of natural spaces, etc... I think we can not continue to increase our population indefinitely. As horrible it might sound, that's a fact.
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  #114  
Old 10.01.2011, 20:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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If that's what they want, I don't care. I'm playing devil's advocate for all that passes as squishy thinking.
Should the law be repealed if it is shown that the law doesn't significantly reduce suicides? Or is this more about gun control than it is about suicide? If it is, just say so.
Again, should we ban smoking, cars, and alcohol as they cause more deaths per year? Why won't anyone answer that?
It is about gun control. One of the major changes would be that somebody who just got out of jail for armed robbery cannot get a rifle (only rifles, not pump-actions or handguns etc.) with only his ID. Guess what, that is possible. And it happened, among others, to a "former" former classmate.

And fallacious arguments are not squishy thinking? It does not "solve" global warming either

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But people are still allowed to argue either side as well . . . That's part of democracy too.
Yes, of course, he just made it sound like this would be imposed on the people when it is the people who are deciding.

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regarding the statistics, not everyone dies because he has been shot at... And as a personal anecdote, the weapon is sometimes "just" being used as a mean of intimidation.
IMHO that is why a lot of women, for example those of the CVP, are for the initiative.

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Er, no. You don't need to have good reasons. Switzerland is functioning pretty well as it is, so you need an argument to change anything. Especially if you want to convince the conservative crowd. The SP voters will support this anyway, so you need good arguments that convince some of the others as well...

"We always did it this way" is actually enough of an argument and with "tradition" alone could the SVP win this one - only god knows why they really had to go for the foreign criminal on the posters again... So to be honest: If there is no problem with the current situation - guns at home, but bullets locked away - then you will lose the vote. The articles on suicide have not really convinced me so far - looks like countries without guns in Asia have higher suicide rates, but nobody is trying to outlaw sushi knives. Since I am actually pro gun-control, I guess the arguments for the change will surely not convince anyone who is more conservative than me...
With the initiative:

Can you buy a rifle with only an id? No, you will need a permission to buy a gun, same thing you already need for buying pistols etc. Basically, you need a clean criminal record.

Will there be more government data on gun-owners: No, the difference is that we used to have 26 databases, now we have just one.

Can you buy guns for sports or hunting? Why, yes, of course.
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  #115  
Old 10.01.2011, 20:50
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Back when there were only clubs and stones, people used clubs and stones. Now that man has guns, he will use anything developed since clubs and stones if he wants to threaten, hurt or kill somebody. Until something is done about man, the means of mayhem is only a question of efficiency and remoteness from the horror of the deed.

In my experience, those who carry weapons privately, do so more out of an illusion of power and ego than any realistic sense of defense. Those of experience who have carried weapons professionally have a totally different sense of weaponry and fewer illusions. Those who have been shot and/or have shot someone for any reason have still a more refined sense of weaponry. My experience being out of the latter, I don't have much respect or trust in the former.

I would say generally that most people's sense of guns is born out of fear and/or insecurity, further fed by Hollywood and/or FPS computer games, with very little basis in reality. In today's world private weapons are peashooters in war scenarios, cause immense collateral damage in local conflicts and uprisings, as well as nutter shooter scenarios, have not been effective in terrorist or criminal scenarios and have no sensible place in society.

The only people who should bear arms are those who are balanced psychologically, trained and experienced in restrained dealing with conflict and are acting under authority. The best, of course, would be if all private weapons are taken out of circulation and conflicts go back to more of the bluff nature as with our ape ancestors, but that won't happen...
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  #116  
Old 10.01.2011, 20:55
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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OK, I made a poll: Swiss Arms Poll

Please vote in the correct category! Maybe

N.B. Who has voted, and how, is not shown (so you can vote in privacy)!

Tom
Maybe you could be more definite in the poll questions please? ---> YES = Weapons in the Armoury. NO = Weapons in the bedroom.
  #117  
Old 10.01.2011, 21:00
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Maybe you could be more definite in the poll questions please? ---> YES = Weapons in the Armoury. NO = Weapons in the bedroom.
Although the problem is more complex than that...

YES = Weapons in the Armoury.
= probably more taxes
= efforts from government not being put in more serious matters,etc...

NO = Weapons in the bedroom
= no change as current situation (is that such a problem nowadays? have they been many abuses?)
= weapons for militaries only
= less cost as it won't change
etc...



If the issue was only about the "storage location" of weapons then we would not need to debate for days!
  #118  
Old 10.01.2011, 21:07
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Weapons in the bedroom
When I was engaged to a Swiss woman, I got into trouble for that.

Apparently it is an offence to have an offensive person on your weapon...
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  #119  
Old 10.01.2011, 21:17
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Maybe you could be more definite in the poll questions please? ---> YES = Weapons in the Armoury. NO = Weapons in the bedroom.
The poll relates to the initiative, and like most Swiss initiatives, one has to read it to understand what it's about!

And since when are Swiss voting questions clear, anyway?

Tom
  #120  
Old 10.01.2011, 21:49
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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When I was engaged to a Swiss woman, I got into trouble for that.

Apparently it is an offence to have an offensive person on your weapon...
This needs some more info,calibers,rapid firring,automatic,semi automatic ,hand hold ,tripod etc etc
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