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Old 13.02.2011, 23:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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For trendsetting, one only needs to look at the Romands! We always were in advance of the pack.

Today's result was what I expected; I thought it was going to be 55/45. But nearly half wanted it so I am happy.

Switzerland always modernise rather late (reject women suffrage then accept, reject the UN then accept, reject EEA then accept bilateral accords). So one day, I know I will see military weapons out of the home and the introduction of a professional army.

Edit: I see great minds think alike.
For trendsetting, Zurich City very very often was ahead ot the pack and ahead of the Romandie. But this is no surprise if you look back to 1847/48 !
  #1262  
Old 13.02.2011, 23:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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For trendsetting, Zurich City very very often was ahead ot the pack and ahead of the Romandie. But this is no surprise if you look back to 1847/48 !
You mean that Fribourg and Valais were part of the Sonderbund? Well, I guess I should be more specific about the trendsetting then (i.e., I meant Geneva or Geneva/Vaud).

But I admit Zürich City is also very advanced. I always love the graphics on the Tagesanzeiger website where you can switch from cantonal results to district level. Zürich is always there, a little red spot sitting in a sea of green (or vice versa).
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Old 14.02.2011, 00:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You mean that Fribourg and Valais were part of the Sonderbund? Well, I guess I should be more specific about the trendsetting then (i.e., I meant Geneva or Geneva/Vaud).

But I admit Zürich City is also very advanced. I always love the graphics on the Tagesanzeiger website where you can switch from cantonal results to district level. Zürich is always there, a little red spot sitting in a sea of green (or vice versa).
Freiburg and Waadtland were and possibly still are reactionary ! And so still is a good part of the rural part of Zurich
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Old 14.02.2011, 00:33
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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You mean that Fribourg and Valais were part of the Sonderbund? Well, I guess I should be more specific about the trendsetting then (i.e., I meant Geneva or Geneva/Vaud).

But I admit Zürich City is also very advanced. I always love the graphics on the Tagesanzeiger website where you can switch from cantonal results to district level. Zürich is always there, a little red spot sitting in a sea of green (or vice versa).


Sommaruga will Waffenrecht verschärfen



I much love this graphic here above !

the statements here
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/15965749

may show why Zürcher in case of doubt will not care about the interests of the Ticinesi

[IMG]file:///C:/Temp/moz-screenshot-20.png[/IMG]
  #1265  
Old 14.02.2011, 00:59
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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For trendsetting, Zurich City very very often was ahead ot the pack [...]
Well, Wolli, no offense, but the problem with most Zürchers is that they seem to think that they're God's gift to mankind...

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may show why Zürcher in case of doubt will not care about the interests of the Ticinesi
That's exactly why not just the majority of the people but also the majority of cantons is required to approve an initiative.
  #1266  
Old 14.02.2011, 03:39
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Strange, but not unusual, that a discussion on the Swiss referendum ended up with the Turks versus the Armenians. The placards set out by the SVP had nothing to do with the referendum, but were typical of the SVP agenda. They were a lift from the NRA (I remember these billboards from my 12 years in the USA "if we criminalise guns, only the criminals will have guns"). The SVP wants to return Switzerland to "traditional Swiss values" but ignores that the world and Europe has moved on.
Yeah I agree to that. "Move on" to the total surrender of their freedom, guns and probably gold to the EC/UN caviar eaters and first class ticket holders. Are you one of the caviar consumers? or are you just proud and happy to pay for the chains for you and caviar for them?"

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Unless Swiss troops under UNO command are allowed to fight,
Swiss troops under UN command "allowed" to fight? Man run that by William Tell and he will turn in his Cantonal allegiance and be the next suicide statistic. "allowed to fight" that just boggles the mind you are a freeborn Swiss. and you want to submit your freedom and dignity to your new UN masters. Get up off your knees slave, it's unseemly for a Swiss. I expect that kind of grovelling from an American not a Swiss.

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I see no reason to have the troops armed, so no reason to have a gun at home. But perhaps I have missed news of an invasion from Liechtenstein!
Yeah there was a little group around in the 1930's and they were kidding and joking about dangers and threats too. They were unarmed. They made a (millions) movies about it perhaps have you seen them. It was hilarious!! A whole series of WW2 era comedies how you must have laughed!! I wonder if you found it funny when your country had to pay 10 billion to that funny little group of comedians though, how do you say "extortion" in Swiss lol? perhaps it's a touchy subject here oui? non? (Jeune ce pa)

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As soon as swiss soldiers with "auslander" roots(with an "ic, ov,Ahmed or Ali names) surpasses soldiers with names like Hanspeter,Hansueli,meier or brunner then SP will be victorious
Sad but true, kind of makes this whole discussion moot. No right to keep and bear arms under Sharia. As Kosovo went, next Italy/Spain/France/Swiss/USSA. How is your Arabic Fellah? Allah Akbar!!

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May be or not. Many people from the "Outer Mediterranean" are politically conservative. A family of intellectuals of Alexandria/Egypt origin in recent years got CH nationality and joined the SP and improved their local position quite nicely......
Yeah I heard the Serbs talking exactly those talking points in Kosovo back in the 90's. How did that work out for them my fellow Christian?

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It was close. Time moves on. Times change, it took women a while to win the right to vote. One day guns will be under stricter control in Switzerland and one day military service will be abolished. I think I will live to see the day.
Too true, sad but true, I hope I never see that day, I would weep too many bitter tears. Funny how you would celebrate the loss of your Liberty and Independence. "May your chains set lightly upon you."

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...........

Switzerland always modernise rather late (reject women suffrage then accept, reject the UN then accept, reject EEA then accept bilateral accords). So one day, I know I will see military weapons out of the home and the introduction of a professional army.
Again I agree. But I hope somehow though this never happens. If it could happen in Swiss then one day we might have to get the AK-47s out of our own homes in the US. Man that would suck big time.

But if millions of Swiss don't care anymore about defending their Liberty and don't want to join the Swiss Army, why don't they just bag the draft and become "draft dodgers" like the Americans who were drafted in the Vietnam war. Any American with any sense dodged that draft because who wants to go die in Afga-- oops, I mean Vietnam to enrich the wallets of War Pigs? (Example of US "draft Dodgers" Vietnam era- B!ll Klinton/Georg w Bu$h/D!ck Chainey/Rush LImbaugh/Bill Kristol/Just about everyone in charge nowadays. Omama was probably serving in the military just not US military mid- 1980s)
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Old 14.02.2011, 03:58
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Moi:Funny that's exactly what the Turks told the Armenians, right before they took their guns and killed them. How many million Armenian Christians were disarmed by the Turks and killed? As Europeans you were closer to it than Americans, so you should know more about the mass-killings of the disarmed Armenians than I do.

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/LawRev/lethal.htm

...........

http://www.truth-it.net/guns_and_genocide.html

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The Armenians were not disarmed, but armed enough to do, in the early 1910s, assassination attempts against Enver Pasha and Talaat Pasha, two members of the ruling triumvirate who governed the Turkish Empire in the 1910s
I would expect anyone to try to assassinate some tyrant who was carrying out a genocide against their small group so good on them for trying. As I said I am sure you know more about European matters than I. I also know the Swiss are the smartest people in the world. I am just a dumb American and a fan from afar. But surely you could check my links and read the part how the Turks went village to village, collecting arms and disarming the Armenians before they killed them. Could you please check that and come back and correct your post? The one small group of Armenians they kept their arms and put up a spirited fight I should go back and re-read that part I forget if some them lived or not.
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Old 14.02.2011, 04:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Fox - where do you get your statistics from? In my posts I later cited my statistics as coming from the British Crime Survey and the US Department of Justice. I suppose they both lie too?
1-You probably didn't even read my post, only scan enough to accuse me of getting personal so you can talk about "Opinions" we "have" and get smug and act superior.

2- I could post you one million resources and prove my point, but you would just laugh and call me opinionated and inferior, I am arguing with a brick wall, I understand.

3- This is not about opinions. You posted some UN/NGO talking points propaganda language. I exposed it as lies and emotional nonsense. Where are your statistics from British crime survey US justice dept? here are some links you will ignore, as you ignore truth and reason:

"...tten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice. None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the "gold standard" of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring "a restraint on personal liberty ......."

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/0...wisted-outcome

"....The Sunday Express sent a team of reporters out to investigate the problem and their story of June 20, 1999 said, "In recent months there have been a frightening number of shootings in Britain's major cities, despite new laws banning gun ownership after the Dunblane tragedy. Our investigation established that guns are available through means open to any criminally minded individual.".....
http://rkba.org/comment/brown/England.html

".....Yet none of these laws prevented today’s mass killing spree. indeed, this is not the first time that I’ve written about the failure of British gun control laws to disarm criminals. To name a few cases, I’ve written about a pregnant British woman being raped by an armed home invader, and a British postal worker who was fatally shot by an armed robber. I’ve mentioned how a British bicycle rider was gunned down, and how teenagers are often shot in London these days. I’ve discussed how a former boxing champion and father of 2 young children was fatally shot in a smoke-free nightclub after politely asking a violent individual to stop smoking indoors. Moving beyond those anecdotal evidence, crime statistics show a 40% increase in handgun related crime in the first two years after the British banned handguns. In sum, British gun control has failed to disarm the criminals, who get their guns on the black market – or simply manufacture their own illegal guns.
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2010/0...killing-spree/

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade



By James Slack
Last updated at 8:42 AM on 27th October 2009

Gun crime has increased five-fold in some parts of the UK

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1DtoPHyVt


Quote:
Clearly you have a different opinion to mine, you are entitled to your opinion we live in a society with freedom of thought and speech.
This is not a matter of opinion. I am stating a fact. Britain bans guns. "gun crime" goes up 89% If that is the kind of "progress" you seek for your country, then I guess perhaps we do have a difference of opinion.

Of course I respect the right to freedom of speech, I respect all human and natural rights.

PS- In the US, where we have the strictest gun bans in place, we also have the highest crime and murder rates- obviously - Wash DC, Detroit, NYC. " But for some reason, "everyone has a gun" Vermont, Swiss-like low low crime rates, safest place in America. Can't figure how that could be with everyone having all those dangerous guns around??
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Old 14.02.2011, 06:40
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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caviar eaters and first class ticket holders.
Looks like we've got ourselves some kind of a commie pinko boy on this board.

You do realise, Old Goat, that 98% of the members of this board are bankers, and the other 2% work in service industries relating to banking?

Your hillbilly socialism is unwelcome here. Please go and bother someone who gives a bugger.
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Old 14.02.2011, 07:25
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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1-You probably didn't even read my post, only scan enough to accuse me of getting personal so you can talk about "Opinions" we "have" and get smug and act superior.

2- I could post you one million resources and prove my point, but you would just laugh and call me opinionated and inferior, I am arguing with a brick wall, I understand.

3- This is not about opinions. You posted some UN/NGO talking points propaganda language. I exposed it as lies and emotional nonsense. Where are your statistics from British crime survey US justice dept? here are some links you will ignore, as you ignore truth and reason:

"...tten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice. None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the "gold standard" of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring "a restraint on personal liberty ......."

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/0...wisted-outcome

"....The Sunday Express sent a team of reporters out to investigate the problem and their story of June 20, 1999 said, "In recent months there have been a frightening number of shootings in Britain's major cities, despite new laws banning gun ownership after the Dunblane tragedy. Our investigation established that guns are available through means open to any criminally minded individual.".....
http://rkba.org/comment/brown/England.html

".....Yet none of these laws prevented today’s mass killing spree. indeed, this is not the first time that I’ve written about the failure of British gun control laws to disarm criminals. To name a few cases, I’ve written about a pregnant British woman being raped by an armed home invader, and a British postal worker who was fatally shot by an armed robber. I’ve mentioned how a British bicycle rider was gunned down, and how teenagers are often shot in London these days. I’ve discussed how a former boxing champion and father of 2 young children was fatally shot in a smoke-free nightclub after politely asking a violent individual to stop smoking indoors. Moving beyond those anecdotal evidence, crime statistics show a 40% increase in handgun related crime in the first two years after the British banned handguns. In sum, British gun control has failed to disarm the criminals, who get their guns on the black market – or simply manufacture their own illegal guns.
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2010/0...killing-spree/

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade



By James Slack
Last updated at 8:42 AM on 27th October 2009

Gun crime has increased five-fold in some parts of the UK

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1DtoPHyVt


This is not a matter of opinion. I am stating a fact. Britain bans guns. "gun crime" goes up 89% If that is the kind of "progress" you seek for your country, then I guess perhaps we do have a difference of opinion.

Of course I respect the right to freedom of speech, I respect all human and natural rights.

PS- In the US, where we have the strictest gun bans in place, we also have the highest crime and murder rates- obviously - Wash DC, Detroit, NYC. " But for some reason, "everyone has a gun" Vermont, Swiss-like low low crime rates, safest place in America. Can't figure how that could be with everyone having all those dangerous guns around??
"Gun crimes" has nothing do with banning guns or similar. Crimes goes up when the social issues in a country arise, e.g. unemployment.

and once again, the social structures of UK and US does NOT apply to Switzerland...apples & pears...apples & pears.

...your "analysis" fail!
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Old 14.02.2011, 07:54
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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1-You probably didn't even read my post, only scan enough to accuse me of getting personal so you can talk about "Opinions" we "have" and get smug and act superior.

2- I could post you one million resources and prove my point, but you would just laugh and call me opinionated and inferior, I am arguing with a brick wall, I understand.

3- This is not about opinions. You posted some UN/NGO talking points propaganda language. I exposed it as lies and emotional nonsense. Where are your statistics from British crime survey US justice dept? here are some links you will ignore, as you ignore truth and reason:

"...tten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice. None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the "gold standard" of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring "a restraint on personal liberty ......."

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/0...wisted-outcome

"....The Sunday Express sent a team of reporters out to investigate the problem and their story of June 20, 1999 said, "In recent months there have been a frightening number of shootings in Britain's major cities, despite new laws banning gun ownership after the Dunblane tragedy. Our investigation established that guns are available through means open to any criminally minded individual.".....
http://rkba.org/comment/brown/England.html

".....Yet none of these laws prevented today’s mass killing spree. indeed, this is not the first time that I’ve written about the failure of British gun control laws to disarm criminals. To name a few cases, I’ve written about a pregnant British woman being raped by an armed home invader, and a British postal worker who was fatally shot by an armed robber. I’ve mentioned how a British bicycle rider was gunned down, and how teenagers are often shot in London these days. I’ve discussed how a former boxing champion and father of 2 young children was fatally shot in a smoke-free nightclub after politely asking a violent individual to stop smoking indoors. Moving beyond those anecdotal evidence, crime statistics show a 40% increase in handgun related crime in the first two years after the British banned handguns. In sum, British gun control has failed to disarm the criminals, who get their guns on the black market – or simply manufacture their own illegal guns.
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2010/0...killing-spree/

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade



By James Slack
Last updated at 8:42 AM on 27th October 2009

Gun crime has increased five-fold in some parts of the UK

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz1DtoPHyVt


This is not a matter of opinion. I am stating a fact. Britain bans guns. "gun crime" goes up 89% If that is the kind of "progress" you seek for your country, then I guess perhaps we do have a difference of opinion.

Of course I respect the right to freedom of speech, I respect all human and natural rights.

PS- In the US, where we have the strictest gun bans in place, we also have the highest crime and murder rates- obviously - Wash DC, Detroit, NYC. " But for some reason, "everyone has a gun" Vermont, Swiss-like low low crime rates, safest place in America. Can't figure how that could be with everyone having all those dangerous guns around??


Thanks for providing some references as to where you got your information and for not getting personal this time. I read them. I'm originally from the UK and here's the problem in my eyes - I'll never see the Daily express or the Daily Mail as a valid or reliable source of statistics.

Most English people who post here would agree - both papers are extremely subjective, sensationalist, right wing tabloids. The Daily Mail was the paper who basically campaigned for the far right British National Party at the last elections - just to give you an idea of their political leanings.

Nevertheless - you also doubt my sources (The British Crime Survey used by the Home Office and the US Dept of Justice) and actually we're both right because ultimately statistics can be manipulated to back up any kind of argument and no set of statistics are the definitive truth.

I don't doubt the individual stories you write about - but I tend to trust more in my source of statistics as a reflection of the general picture.

I also think that many people who don't live in Switzerland or who have perhaps only lived here for a few years as expats - really don't see/don't want to see, the problems they have here with violent crimes. I have never read about so many cases of spouse and family murder and suicide. I live on a middle class small estate where you know most people. In over the past 6 years (of the 10 I've lived here) we've had a suicide (by gun shot) and a murder (by gun shot) and this is a outwardly 'respectable' neighbourhood. In all my years living in the UK and Australia I never heard so close hand of such violence.

But you'd be justified in saying, those are just your own anecdotes and they don't mean a think in terms of the bigger picture - nevertheless they are suggestive.

Ultimately I would like to see the end to every single gun and weapon on the face of this planet - I know most people will say it's idealistic and not realistic, but as another poster pointed out if we addressed the social problems and world wide imbalances in economies hand in hand with a removal of guns from society it could work. I know you won't agree - and so lets just agree to disagree.
  #1272  
Old 14.02.2011, 08:22
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Swiss troops under UN command "allowed" to fight? Man run that by William Tell and he will turn in his Cantonal allegiance and be the next suicide statistic.
It's not even a question of contacting the dead. William Tell is a fictional character who never existed...
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Old 14.02.2011, 10:40
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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"Gun crimes" has nothing do with banning guns or similar.
Hear, hear.
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Old 14.02.2011, 12:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It's not even a question of contacting the dead. William Tell is a fictional character who never existed...
Are you sure about that? I think most of the literature suggests that Bill was a real person who lived in the Middle Ages (14th Century). What isn't, and can never be, substantiated is whether he actually performed all the deeds that are attributed to him, although it's a reasonable bet that he was instrumental in the rebellion against the Habsburg rulers. I think. Maybe.

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I also look forward to see the day when the mandatory military service will be completely abolished or replaced by a professional army
Or no army at all. Why does Switzerland need one, really?

Now a navy, well, that would be something else, entirely ...
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Old 14.02.2011, 12:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I'm so sorry Ab - I replied to the wrong person. It was supposed to be for StephanieW. What a idiot am I. Apologies.
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Old 14.02.2011, 13:02
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Completely messed up the reply sorry should have been for StephanieWE. I'll get my coat. I'm natrualised swiss - by marriage.
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Old 14.02.2011, 13:21
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Hi Wolli, having nursed former soldiers in the british army I can say that a professional army is not the way to go. The british army is one of, if not the finest army in the world but the professional army has inherrent dangers. The first is a lack of transparency as it has a nature of 'what happens on the base, stays on the base'. This is an attitude which is a perfect concealment for bullying, mental health issues and elitist attitudes to civilians. A volunteer or conscript army (alongside career soldiers) brings values from outside and fosters leadership and understanding. Perfect for a defensive force such as the swiss.
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Old 14.02.2011, 15:57
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Well, that's enough of that. Didn't surprise me.

Gun control didn't work in New York City either. Handguns have been illegal for decades but the bad guys can always get them.
  #1279  
Old 14.02.2011, 16:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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. "Move on" to the total surrender of their freedom, guns and probably gold to the EC/UN caviar eaters and first class ticket holders. .

. Funny how you would celebrate the loss of your Liberty and Independence.

But if millions of Swiss don't care anymore about defending their Liberty and don't want to join the Swiss Army

You keep equating gun control to loss of freedom. Can you explain this because I was always of the opinion that freedom is a state of mind or "just another word for nothing left to lose".

Do you mean defending your possessions? If you want to be free then you are probably better off without possessions as possessions tie you down. Do you mean defending "your way of life"? This way of life was probably imposed on you anyway and you just inherited it from previous generations and is therefore not a CHOSEN way of life.

I therefore don't understand the connection between guns and freedom and would be grateful for enlightenment
  #1280  
Old 14.02.2011, 16:31
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Well, that's enough of that. Didn't surprise me.
Enough of the vote perhaps, but I suspect this thread will stagger on for quite some time like someone shot in a Peckinpah movie...
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army, guns, referendum, tradition, weapons




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