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Old 10.01.2011, 23:02
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This needs some more info,calibers,rapid firring,automatic,semi automatic ,hand hold ,tripod etc etc
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Old 11.01.2011, 00:05
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Back on target.. I certainly wish they didn't exist and do very much hope that they'll be banished. Nevertheless I have my doubts as it is part of the culture and culture supported by centuries of history, is not easily changed.
  #123  
Old 11.01.2011, 00:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Just so happens we were having a chat about this initiative last week in the office.

So, basically we (two Brits, one Italian) asked the Swiss guy why his son keeps his gun at home - because all Swiss army are apparently allowed to leave their gun at the armoury if they wish. His reply "because it's too far to the armoury, so easier for him to bring it home - it'd take him an hour to get there". So we all say "but wouldn't it be safer in the armoury than in the cellar?" His reply: "well, he doesn't have any bullets so he can't do anything with it anyway." We say "yes, but he could go rob a post office and they would assume it was loaded". His reply "yes but he could use another weapon if he wanted to do that - a knife, or even a pepper spray was used in a robbery once."

The discussion went on and on and on. And it goes something like "why?" "why not?","yes but why","yes but why not?" "no really, why?" and on and on.

And does anyone know if there is actually enough space in the armoury to store all the weapons anyway (Swiss guy says no, but I have no idea if he really knows or not).

My Dad - who is (truthfully) ex-SAS (albeit a very long time ago) believes that people who want guns to do bad things will get them regardless of any laws or controls. He believes that trained soldiers with legal guns are less of a danger than your average psycho with a grudge and an illegal gun. My Dad could do some quite nasty things to you without the need for a gun anyway [a statement he often relayed to my unsuitable boyfriends ]. As someone else said previously - it's not the guns you need to worry about, it's the psychos who want to use them to kill you.

In the end my Swiss colleague admitted that he would vote yes to guns in the armoury. And why I hear you ask? Because the gun takes up space in the cellar. He predicts that Switzerland as a whole will probably vote No though.
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  #124  
Old 11.01.2011, 00:19
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

the thing is i don't see that switzerland has a gun problem. they seem like a pretty sensible lot who don't go around shooting each other.

i think the fact that they keep these weapons at home sets a foundation of trust and civic responsibility and also literally puts power in the hands of the people.

i'm sometimes surprised at how quickly people are happy to surrender their power and self-reliance in exchange for a more nannying state, whether it be with regard to gun law or 'security' against vague terror threats.
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  #125  
Old 11.01.2011, 00:21
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Gun crime in CH?

On another forum I'm on we are comparing the USA vs CH on gun crime. I believe its low even though everyone has a machinegun(kept in the home in case of invasion ) also I heard once that any gun crime in CH is caused by criminal tourists or foreigners(is that SVP propaganda?) Any facts would be appreciated.
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Old 11.01.2011, 00:44
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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On another forum I'm on we are comparing the USA vs CH on gun crime. I believe its low even though everyone has a machinegun(kept in the home in case of invasion ) also I heard once that any gun crime in CH is caused by criminal tourists or foreigners(is that SVP propaganda?) Any facts would be appreciated.
USA vs CH gun crime comparison. No contest!

Don't know much if anything about guns (and don't want to) but from what I've read and heard, it is relatively low here considering.

Not everyone has a machine gun (I don't and wouldn't even if I could).

All crime is blamed on tourists or resident foreigners. Period.
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  #127  
Old 11.01.2011, 01:36
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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All crime is blamed on tourists or resident foreigners. Period.
According to federal statistics, Switzerland has about 200 cases of murder or manslaughter (a.k.a. crimes of causing death) per year. About 60% of them are committed by foreigners. Right now (1:35 a.m.) I cannot provide a link, though, but if my memory serves me right, this figure has been fairly constant in quite a few years.

Nite anyway.
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  #128  
Old 11.01.2011, 02:52
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

...and the 60% by foreigners is usually between foreigners.

No, the Swiss are very responsible when it comes to guns, and when they want to shoot their wife, husband or neighbor, they go out and buy a private gun for the purpose, rather than dishonor their military weaponry.
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  #129  
Old 11.01.2011, 07:52
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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It's a fact that Switzerland has a relatively high suicide rate, #17 worldwide. But the funny thing (if you want to call it funny) is, the suicide rate of the men is # 23, whereas that of the women is #2. Needless to say that most of those women do not use their men's military weapons and ammo.

By the way, the gun-toting USA is #40 in that list.

Food for thought?
Maybe the high suicide rate in CH (especially for women) has more to do with the rigid and old fashioned social structure. There is very little personal freedom here if you want to fit in, I can imagine the pressure of this gets to some people. Being a 'scheissauslander' I'm not bothered by the social structure but if you're a native and want to fit in things can be pretty hard here...
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  #130  
Old 11.01.2011, 08:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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My Dad - who is (truthfully) ex-SAS (albeit a very long time ago) believes that people who want guns to do bad things will get them regardless of any laws or controls. He believes that trained soldiers with legal guns are less of a danger than your average psycho with a grudge and an illegal gun.
But if a significant percentage of the male population is participating in military training (contrary to the UK) you will inevitably have a certain number of psychos participating as well. And basic training is not known for being an effective cure for psychiatric problems. Yes, there is some screening upon drafting, but certainly you are not saying that every psycho is properly identified ?
The other factor is time. Even if the screening at age 18 was highly effective in identifying people with mental problems it will not identify those who develop a mental instability in the next twenty years.
You are also comparing apples and oranges. The average psycho with a grudge should not have and should not have access to a gun. Yes, guns can be illegally obtained. However, I don't see how this can be an argument against strict gun control (akin to: Most cars can do 180 km/h on the highway in CH - thus let's stop using speed traps ).
  #131  
Old 11.01.2011, 09:28
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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But if a significant percentage of the male population is participating in military training (contrary to the UK) you will inevitably have a certain number of psychos participating as well. And basic training is not known for being an effective cure for psychiatric problems. Yes, there is some screening upon drafting, but certainly you are not saying that every psycho is properly identified ?
This referendum isn't about psychos, rather the fact that there are a lot of weapons currently in free circulation that can be easily accessed by psychos, people with suicidal tendencies, wackos with domestic situations etc. who will are willing to take other people out when they're having a bad day.

It's turning into a "don't let central government take away your historical rights" aspect from the conservatives, but that is just a smokescreen in my opinion. This is 2011, no one needs an automatic assault rifle or a pistol at home. However well trained you may or not be, however many times I've heard the argument that people kill and not weapons, I know where my cross is headed on the voting slip in a few weeks.
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  #132  
Old 11.01.2011, 10:32
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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On another forum I'm on we are comparing the USA vs CH on gun crime. I believe its low even though everyone has a machinegun(kept in the home in case of invasion ) also I heard once that any gun crime in CH is caused by criminal tourists or foreigners(is that SVP propaganda?) Any facts would be appreciated.
Fact: They do not have machine guns at home. It is the second time somebody mixes this up... they can choose to keep their rifle, the Swiss equivalent of an M16 for you, in the case you are a lower ranking soldier - or your pistol in the case you are an officer at home. Most seem to choose to do so as it is a tradition. The ammo is stored by the army nowadays. There are very few cases where these army weapons have been used for robberies or the like - the problems caused by them are suicides or family shootings. Problem is that many of those cases happened in the past when soldiers still hat ammunition at home...
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  #133  
Old 11.01.2011, 10:50
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Kind of Treverus. Here's the spec for the SIG Sturmgewehr 90 (SG550):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_SG_550

Special forces have the shorter barrel, automatic fire versions. These are not standard militia army issue however.

The older Sturmgewehr 57 (SG510) is also out there in very high quantities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgewehr_57

A division of SIG became Swiss Arms in 2000. BTW, if you look at the bottom of your Tetrapak milk and juice cartons, you'll see that SIG have probably produced that. Now that's product diversification.
  #134  
Old 11.01.2011, 11:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

How long has it been compulsory for ammunition to be stored back at base? Has there been a drop in firearms incidents since then?
  #135  
Old 11.01.2011, 14:35
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Boys toys are dangerous and should be controlled and safely locked up. Personally I would like to vote yes. I see no advantage in keeping weapons at home, only disadvantages and dangers.
.
I have this damn weapon at home as I had to do my military duty here in Switzerland. I can tell you that this weapon is a real pain in the neck. Have to carry it with me when I go to the military every year, make sure that no one but me can have it in hands... however, with the amazing swiss military organization you can put your gun here and someone else has already taken it there and even shoot targets with.

If only I could get rid of this deadly toy... I don't mind firing at paper targets but would never be able to shoot anyone with it.

The Swiss army has so many places/secured warehouses etc etc where they could store our weapons. They should, for once, think clever so that we don't need to keep our Fass-90 at home...
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  #136  
Old 11.01.2011, 15:12
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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How long has it been compulsory for ammunition to be stored back at base? Has there been a drop in firearms incidents since then?
I think two or three years ago. I remember I had to give this "can" full of ammunition back to the superiors. They had a list and put a mark beside your name when you had given it back.

Lots of my friends gave it back but they forgot to put the mark confirming that they no longer have the ammunition with them... forget about it... Swiss army organization sucks so much !!! It's only a big joke.

I like discipline and I don't care following rules but when it is a total waste of time, a complete nonsense and also a waste of money we can use for something much more useful... well, I don't agree !
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Old 11.01.2011, 16:27
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

I find this thread very interesting. Many thanks to American lockpicker for the link.

People of Switzerland - I have some questions. Much of these questions have been spawned by a combination of a tragic violent event that happened in our country a few days ago and my friends on facebook (who have a wide diversity of beliefs) + my thoughts on guns, violence, and social systems.

So:

1. In Switzerland, are civilians allowed to own private firearms including rifles, handguns, Shotguns and the ammunition to use such firearms?

2. Can a civilian carry a pistol about his person concealed?

3. Is a civilian allowed to handload metallic cartridges?

4. Are there public lands in which a civilian can hunt game? - and are they allowed to hunt with a pistol?

5. What are the general restrictions on firearms there?

6. What are your thoughts regarding the violent events involving guns in the U.S.?


__________________________________________________ ________

Thank you!

As for a short background of who I am - I live in the upper Midwest section of the U.S. in a very rural area. I own a handgun, I have had a license to carry a concealed pistol for 5 years now - I only decided to obtain the license due to the interest of hunting game with a pistol on public lands while I was hiking - so I could stay within the law. Basic handgun training is a requirement of receiving a license to carry a pistol in my state - another state - Vermont - does not even require a person to be licensed to carry a handgun concealed and has a low crime rate compared to many other states - even states where the ability for a civilian to obtain a concealed pistol is extremely restrictive. I handload cartridges for hobby, have my own 200m range on my private property (longer ranges are available - my land isn't very large).

If any of you have questions for me I would be happy to answer them as well.

Warm regards,
Kegs
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  #138  
Old 11.01.2011, 16:32
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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As for a short background of who I am - I live in the upper Midwest section of the U.S. in a very rural area. I own a handgun, I have had a license to carry a concealed pistol for 5 years now - I only decided to obtain the license due to the interest of hunting game with a pistol on public lands while I was hiking - so I could stay within the law. Basic handgun training is a requirement of receiving a license to carry a pistol in my state - another state - Vermont - does not even require a person to be licensed to carry a handgun concealed and has a low crime rate compared to many other states - even states where the ability for a civilian to obtain a concealed pistol is extremely restrictive. I handload cartridges for hobby, have my own 200m range on my private property (longer ranges are available - my land isn't very large).

If any of you have questions for me I would be happy to answer them as well.

Warm regards,
Kegs
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  #139  
Old 11.01.2011, 16:40
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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1. In Switzerland, are civilians allowed to own private firearms including rifles, handguns, Shotguns and the ammunition to use such firearms?
Yes.

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2. Can a civilian carry a pistol about his person concealed?
Depends on the canton. I have known people who had permits.

Quote:
3. Is a civilian allowed to handload metallic cartridges?
Don't know, but I expect so.

Quote:
4. Are there public lands in which a civilian can hunt game? - and are they allowed to hunt with a pistol?
Yes, but don't know about using a pistol, shotguns and hunting rifles are what I usually see around here.

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5. What are the general restrictions on firearms there?
Pretty relaxed, especially compared to all the neighbors.

Tom
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Old 11.01.2011, 16:56
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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1. In Switzerland, are civilians allowed to own private firearms including rifles, handguns, Shotguns and the ammunition to use such firearms?
2. Can a civilian carry a pistol about his person concealed?
3. Is a civilian allowed to handload metallic cartridges?
4. Are there public lands in which a civilian can hunt game? - and are they allowed to hunt with a pistol?
5. What are the general restrictions on firearms there?
6. What are your thoughts regarding the violent events involving guns in the U.S.?
1. Yes, provided you have a permit. Permit is not given to nationals of certain states which are/were recently involved in war or civil war. For foreigners the type of the residence permit also affects whether you do or don't get the weapon's permit.
2. Yes, provided you have a specific permit for carrying a weapon (different from the permit to own the weapon, higher hurdles apply). The concept of private individuals carrying weapons openly is alien to most European countries (apart from hunters, members of historical societies and the like).
3. Yes, again restrictions apply: The ammo must meet certain criteria.
4. Only if you have a hunter's license.
5. See above
6. There is a separate discussion re that in the Off-topic forum, look for the International politics subforum.
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