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  #161  
Old 11.01.2011, 19:29
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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Ok, now it makes more sense.

Is that ammo (5.56NATO or 7.62NATO for example) able to be obtained legally (for the off-duty soldier) now?
'Legally' is another matter!

Tom
  #162  
Old 11.01.2011, 20:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

Quite a few linx around here- but not match for a bear. And of course the odd marauding wolf - but with the mindset here, they sadly rarely live very long!
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Old 11.01.2011, 21:19
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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'Legally' is another matter!

Tom
So what is the purpose of this new measure if it only restricts items that are already restricted?
  #164  
Old 11.01.2011, 21:23
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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yes, i wasn't referring only to switzerland. i don't think switzerland has anything other than the occasional marauding bear from austria...
I see what you did there, Phil.
  #165  
Old 11.01.2011, 21:51
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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This need a explanation
Actually the father of this girl tearfully asked in interview that her death not be used to encourage the political wrangling between Democrat and Republican, even though her family are strong Obama supporter. However he does not want her to be forgotten, he wants everybody to remember her.

Tallking about stabbing versus a semi automatic. I have never touched a gun, have no interest in them. however I imagine the gun must be easier. Try stabbing a punchbag with a knife 15 times, pushing it in and pulling it out especially if someone is struggling I imagine it takes a lot of energy. Plus you have to be up close so you can't shoot from a distance you would have to stab one, pull it out run to the next (assuming they haven't run off) stab that one and so on- it is energy and time consuming, which is why the weapon of choice for army, police etc, is a gun not a knife.

My father's cousin a lieutenant in the Swiss army shot himself, at home.

We know someone in Switzerland - he's in the Swiss army, he and a friend got drunk so he showed him his arsenal- but that kind of thing happens in the US, after a few beers.

I wish that we were voting for this in the US. Anyway I will vote yes- it's the least I can do to help protect all the little kiddies.
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  #166  
Old 11.01.2011, 22:01
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

The only animal I have ever been tempted to kill was a marder- they mark your car and come back after you just had it fixed- damned expensive!

My mum used to work lining up gyroscopic gun sights, which is why she came second in the Uganda Women's championship.
  #167  
Old 11.01.2011, 22:10
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

marder = pine marten for us Brits.
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  #168  
Old 11.01.2011, 22:26
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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The assault rifles many Swiss soldiers still keep at home are machine guns. The older Stgw 57 is a light machine gun with a rather small magazine, and the newer Stgw 90 is somewhat closer to a submachine gun, but, according to most international criteria and also, e.g., the US Gun Law, even pure-bred submachine guns still are machine guns.

Or am I missing something?
The Stgw 57 of course IS a machine-gun. Even if soldiers when going home are controlled to have moved on the control-lever to block the machine-gun function. You of course can switch it back within some 20 seconds But when the Stgw was introduced, all soldiers/recruits were told that the Stgw quite unlike the old Karabiner which dominated until the late 1960ies, was a machine-gun
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Old 11.01.2011, 22:34
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Well, the counterargument is that under current rules you only keep your military rifle at home: the standard-issue ammo for it is locked up* in a depot somewhere. Why not have the gun at the depot too?

...and the counterargument to that is that in a militia-activation scenario, passing out one truckload of ammo is much easier (takes fewer vehicles, fewer men, less time) than passing out seven truckloads of guns and a truckload of ammo. Take the guns away and all future military planning/budgeting has to factor in the logistics of redistributing them, presumably while already being shot at.

This is a pretty undeniable cost, so you have to argue that the peacetime benefits are worth it...


*Of course you can buy exactly the same ammo in a gun shop and keep it at home - and some people do, e.g. if they fancy a bit of extra shooting practice throughout the year.
I, during 23 years, always had that "boxed" emergency ammunition at home, and as I was in the office of a staff battery and took care of the stuff not picked up by the colleagues, up to five units of the stuff I then on the start of the next service, had it ready for the colleagues who had none around, but as there was usually only a limited need, my "arsenal" was always quite considerable.

What however is a real issue is the opening times of the arsenals. Mon-Fri 0900-1200/1330-1700 will no longer do. They will have to be open Mon-Sat 0730-1830 ! While I will vote YES, the personal reservation remains as I regard a majority of the personnel of these arsenals as on the dimwitted moronic side
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  #170  
Old 11.01.2011, 22:58
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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The assault rifles many Swiss soldiers still keep at home are machine guns. The older Stgw 57 is a light machine gun with a rather small magazine, and the newer Stgw 90 is somewhat closer to a submachine gun, but, according to most international criteria and also, e.g., the US Gun Law, even pure-bred submachine guns still are machine guns.

Or am I missing something?
Yes you do ,maybe in USA but in Switzerland it`s called sturmgewehr = assault rifle
  #171  
Old 11.01.2011, 23:05
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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Fact: They do not have machine guns at home. It is the second time somebody mixes this up... they can choose to keep their rifle, the Swiss equivalent of an M16 for you, in the case you are a lower ranking soldier - or your pistol in the case you are an officer at home. Most seem to choose to do so as it is a tradition. The ammo is stored by the army nowadays. There are very few cases where these army weapons have been used for robberies or the like - the problems caused by them are suicides or family shootings. Problem is that many of those cases happened in the past when soldiers still hat ammunition at home...
A) the option to deposit the rifle in an arsenal is fairly NEW
B) for many people who would like to do so it is extremely unpractical due to location and opening hours
C) No, most choose to take the gear home as the arsenal option is complicated, unpractical and exceedingly bureaucratic
D) the old Stgw (Sturmgewehr) was not exactly the weapon for a professional robber , not least due to its dimensions. Sure, if you took the Stgw, and mounted the bayonet (dagger) you could grill a cervalet very nicely
  #172  
Old 11.01.2011, 23:13
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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marder = pine marten for us Brits.
Works here too.
  #173  
Old 11.01.2011, 23:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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That's the way it was done for at least 60 years, but I don't know how the matter is handled these days, since I left the army in the 'eighties. Other posters mentioned changes.

Anyway, in former times, the system made perfect sense. The Swiss Army reserves were able to mobilize to the full bunch of about 650'000 troops ('fifties through 'eighties) within 48 hours. Even without a single soldier getting in touch with an army depot, e.g. due to heavy interference from enemy paratroopers, sabotage and the like, there still were about 15 million rounds right where they were meant to be used, namely on the soldier.

As for the casualties caused by army weapons kept at home, most of the propaganda is based on a study by Silke Grabherr et. al., published in the American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology #1 2010. It is used to prove the immense role army weapons kept at home play in violence in Switzerland.

The study lists cases of suicides after killing other people (mostly family members) in 20 years (1984 - 2004) in nine cantons encompassing about 50% of the Swiss population. Looking at the figures very carefully and using a simple pocket calculator, you'll find out that there were about 1.2 cases per year (no typo!) in the whole country with army firearms involved.

Granted, that's 1.2 cases too many, but compare that with alcoholism, motorized traffic, environmental hazards, crimes involving illegal firearms or other means, sports accidents, risks of lousy nutrition, accidents at home, medical malpractice etc. -- all you can say is WTF.

Of course, registering firearms makes sense in many ways, but I don't think it will save a single life. No one really knows if I own a firearm or not. In order to have nay impact, the authorities would have to thoroughly search every household down to the toolbox in the basement.

Criminals won't get their arms registered. Someone who wants to commit suicide will do find another way, maybe failing and vegetating for the rest of their life as a basket case.

To Treverus: You wrote, "The idea of hanging is not to 'pass out' but to break ones neck..." -- correct, provided it is used as a method for death penalty. However, most hangings done for committing suicide don't break necks but just strangulate. You pass out within seconds anyway.
As a former Brigadier wrote recently, a major problem with the "weapon at home" thing is that realities have changed. I for decades had the military stuff deposited at mum in both the flat and the attic. While she of course was not at home all the time, she was a housewife and so at home relatively often during the day. And many other women in the house as well. Now, many multi-apartment houses are almost "empty" throughout the day as women go to work. And many men in military age live in "WG/Wohngemeinschaften" (living combis), which may be nice for the inhabitants but in view of that ex-Brigadier a nightmare in regard to military security.
  #174  
Old 11.01.2011, 23:30
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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When I was engaged to a Swiss woman, I got into trouble for that.

Apparently it is an offence to have an offensive person on your weapon...
But you might clarify two points :

- your fiancée was a women and you were English. So, what did either of you have to do with a military gear ??
- and what does "offensive person" mean ?
  #175  
Old 11.01.2011, 23:37
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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But you might clarify two points :

- your fiancée was a women and you were English. So, what did either of you have to do with a military gear ??
- and what does "offensive person" mean ?
Wolli, stop being a pedantic Swissie, and look for the the joke.

.
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Old 11.01.2011, 23:47
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Wolli, stop being a pedantic Swissie, and look for the the joke.

.
I DO see the joke ..................... but ..................
  #177  
Old 12.01.2011, 13:48
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I DO see the joke ..................... but ..................
Isch halt e chlini Wörterspiili xi

Can you spot the deliberate mistake with this pro referendum iconic picture?

It's either just a fur wound (too much blood on point of forward entry) or Teddy's eyes would be closed if he'd been sent to the picnic in the sky.
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Old 12.01.2011, 14:14
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Re: Gun crime in CH?

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A) the option to deposit the rifle in an arsenal is fairly NEW
B) for many people who would like to do so it is extremely unpractical due to location and opening hours
C) No, most choose to take the gear home as the arsenal option is complicated, unpractical and exceedingly bureaucratic
D) the old Stgw (Sturmgewehr) was not exactly the weapon for a professional robber , not least due to its dimensions. Sure, if you took the Stgw, and mounted the bayonet (dagger) you could grill a cervalet very nicely
Howe come I never had that idea
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Old 12.01.2011, 21:15
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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Personnally, it makes me feel very unconfortable to think that my daughter might be invited to play at a house's friend where the parents keep an arm lying around. However, all my swiss friends tell me that their parents keep their arm and amunitions apart from each other locked away. Saying that, I know one family who has a gun and my daughter will not go there!

Also, there is no more crimes committed here than anywhere else ( especially USA) with guns. More suicides are done with guns than anywhere else but I guess that when someone wants to commit suicide if does not matter wether an arm is there or not, the person will find another way..
I doubt a firearm 'is just lying around'. My father taught me how to handle firearms responsibly and I have never forgotten it.

So I assume you have no fear sending sending your daughter to a home with dogs? Are you aware that dogs can bite? Does she go with you in the car? does she ride a - dare I say it - bicycle?

I strongly suggest you stop scaring your daughter with your own fears and be more realistic. This is not intended to be mean.
  #180  
Old 12.01.2011, 21:18
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Re: Swiss Firearms Vote Feb 13, 2011

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I, during 23 years, always had that "boxed" emergency ammunition at home, and as I was in the office of a staff battery and took care of the stuff not picked up by the colleagues, up to five units of the stuff I then on the start of the next service, had it ready for the colleagues who had none around, but as there was usually only a limited need, my "arsenal" was always quite considerable.

What however is a real issue is the opening times of the arsenals. Mon-Fri 0900-1200/1330-1700 will no longer do. They will have to be open Mon-Sat 0730-1830 ! While I will vote YES, the personal reservation remains as I regard a majority of the personnel of these arsenals as on the dimwitted moronic side
Pot...kettle...black...
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