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  #21  
Old 14.01.2011, 09:08
Bertrand - Geneva
 
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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But where? There is no land around here.
Actually there's still some land, but... or you keep farmers or you build...

There's actually a huge and interesting project going on in Geneva : La Praille-Vernet-Accacias where the gouvernment want to build 6000 housings in a nice environment and new buisnesses


http://etat.geneve.ch/pav/accueil.html you can click at the end of the page to have access to a video in English.
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  #22  
Old 14.01.2011, 09:37
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

Try living in London... the situation is much worse there.

Foreigners push central London prices so that the middle class have to live in Hertfordshire and commute 2 hrs each way.

And property-crazy natives flip houses to try and make moolah.

And 30% of London housing stock is council owned... which again shrinks the supply and pushes prices up.

It's all down to supply and demand wherever you live... that's life
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  #23  
Old 14.01.2011, 21:28
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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When the borders really opened up a few years ago a fairly large number of people took advantage of this, even a lot of swiss, not just expats. However, I know that a number of them has been gradually trickling back to Switzerland as it wasn't the paradise they were expecting. A number of reasons such as permit issues, citizenship issues, not liking living among the French, lack of infrastructure esp. transport, things not so much cheaper, higher taxes, long commutes, quality of life issues.
Geneva they can track the number of new frontaliers fairly accurately through the number of "Permis G" that are being given. The number of frontaliers continues to steadily rise year after year. Personnally I think living in France and working in Geneva is the best of both worlds. It's a no brainer what offers the highest quality of live if you can get a house in nearby France for the price of a tiny flat in Geneva. Especially with the Euro going down against the Swiss franc we can't complain:-)
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  #24  
Old 14.01.2011, 21:45
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

What I find a crime in Geneva is that some beautiful old large houses are being torn down and ugly grey appt blocks put in their places - there does not seem to be any protection over historic interesting buildings - once gone they can never be replaced
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  #25  
Old 14.01.2011, 22:41
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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Geneva they can track the number of new frontaliers fairly accurately through the number of "Permis G" that are being given. The number of frontaliers continues to steadily rise year after year. Personnally I think living in France and working in Geneva is the best of both worlds. It's a no brainer what offers the highest quality of live if you can get a house in nearby France for the price of a tiny flat in Geneva. Especially with the Euro going down against the Swiss franc we can't complain:-)
but you still pay french tax, right?

the germans i know who work in zurich but live north of basel pay german taxes on their swiss incomes
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  #26  
Old 15.01.2011, 00:32
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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but that will follow.
Sure, and it already has to some extent. But again, a look at the map will show you where the problem of Geneva is. Add to this the Germany nowadays enjoys far more trust than France, and that the Bilaterals make it easy for Swiss people to take lodgings in Germany and in the Alsace (a potential already heavily used) . You may realize btw. that the average height of buildings in the Canton of Geneva was 1.3 % of the one in Greater Zürich (Zch incl outer suburbs) and roughly 2.2 % of the the one in the Canton of Zurich. Further on imagine that the UN presence in Geneva results in unbelievably many prestige-hungry folks flocking to Geneva.

I can assure you that nobody here in Zurich too much likes it, but Geneva in this country is the place for PRESTIGE and so it is just logical that this now hits Geneva more than others. I am not breaking into tears for the Geneva folks. They happily profited from the gains of the UN base there and when times get rough they are, as usual, the first to complain
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Old 15.01.2011, 09:02
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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You may realize btw. that the average height of buildings in the Canton of Geneva was 1.3 % of the one in Greater Zürich (Zch incl outer suburbs) and roughly 2.2 % of the the one in the Canton of Zurich.
Hmmm??

Either I'm not fully awake yet or there's something seriously wrong with the sentence above. If I read this right, the average height of buildings in Zurich is about fifty times that in Geneva?
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  #28  
Old 15.01.2011, 09:41
Bertrand - Geneva
 
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

for several years, the higher building in Geneva was le lignon with 91 m. Now I don't know.

Another project in Geneva is to highten some building and it could bring 5000 more flats.

Now the problem is that the rent is not going to be cheap as the people who do that do it for the money....

Result : Genevans will hate more expats..... because there's not a lot of people that will be able to rent those flats.
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Old 15.01.2011, 10:35
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

The only solution is to expand vertically due to the shortage of land, they are complaining when most of the buildings in the city are 4 to 5 floors.

Though this will not benefit much the greedy landlords and real estate agents
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Old 15.01.2011, 17:42
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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Hmmm??

Either I'm not fully awake yet or there's something seriously wrong with the sentence above. If I read this right, the average height of buildings in Zurich is about fifty times that in Geneva?
No, no, you of course are right, as I should have added the word "higher" and should have stated that this figure was given to me in about 1980. In spite of Zurich now sporting the "highest building of Switzerland" I am perfectly sure that the average height of buildings in Geneva now is even more above the one of Zurich. Geneva IS a narrow place, and in defence of Geneva and Basel, it is to be mentioned that if you include the French suburbs of the two places into you considerations, the distance to Greater Zurich becomes far more narrow that the purely Swiss statistics may tell you.
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  #31  
Old 15.01.2011, 17:46
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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The only solution is to expand vertically due to the shortage of land, they are complaining when most of the buildings in the city are 4 to 5 floors.

Though this will not benefit much the greedy landlords and real estate agents
Amazing ! You say the same, my "informant" in 1980, the 98 years old father of my godfather told me. He argued that buildings in the cities of Budapest (where he had lived for much of his live) and Zurich were having 3 to 4 floors
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  #32  
Old 15.01.2011, 18:01
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

For those who are not aware of the geography of Geneva- it is totally hemmed in, surrounded by the Lake, the French border and mountains (Jura to the North and Le Salève, a huge cliff and French pre-Alps to the South.
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  #33  
Old 15.01.2011, 18:14
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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For those who are not aware of the geography of Geneva- it is totally hemmed in, surrounded by the Lake, the French border and mountains (Jura to the North and Le Salève, a huge cliff and French pre-Alps to the South.
Exactly ! Similar factors are the reason why Greater Zurich is expanding northwards, with its outer suburbia now having reached Eglisau and so crossed the Rhine. Meaning that Zurich in a way gradually is becoming a "Grenzstadt" (border town)
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  #34  
Old 15.01.2011, 23:18
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

I would have thought it was the landlords in Geneva that were responsible for raising the rents ... not the immigrants ..
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  #35  
Old 15.01.2011, 23:24
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

Supply and demand- as ever. More immigrants, more people, more demand - higher prices.
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  #36  
Old 17.01.2011, 07:48
Bertrand - Geneva
 
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

A new article today, saying that the percentage of acquisition by foreigners has gone from 28 % to 44 % in 8 years. Foreigners buy also more expensive things. One on two residence is bought by non-swiss. (39 % of foreigners in Geneva)

When a Swiss guy spend 1.5 million on a house, a foreigners will spend 2.7 millions....

If you want to read it : http://www.tdg.ch/geneve/actu-geneve...ger-2011-01-16

(that's funny because the picture with the article shows where my dad's father lived... lol)
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  #37  
Old 17.01.2011, 11:33
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

A very interesting article today in the Suisse Romande Migros Magazine- about the accommodation crisis which started in Geneva, then extended to Lausanne, and now the whole of the Leman area (Lake Geneva). It shows case studies of local people, some with families, trying for year to find a flat, or a larger one for the kids - but have found it totally impossible as more and more multi-national Companies come to the area. The population In Geneva has gone up by 20% in last 20 years - but accommodation has only gone up by 18%. If you take into account divorce and the huge influx of foreign migrants of any kind- there is a substantial shortfall. In a country where mountains and lakes take up a lot of the available space, and where agriculture (only the low-land plains are suitable), vineyards and orchards are competing for space with commercial zones and habitation = trouble. Sadly too, resentment from the locals that their wonderful old building are disappearing to make way for high(er) rise, that their beautiful countryside is eaten up by concrete, and that despite this, they still can't find a flat or a house- it is not surprising. Especially too as they know some of the Estate agents do have agreements with the new multi-nationals to give them priority on anything becoming available, + new pressures on schools, doctors (there is a huge shortage and it is getting worth, as the baby boomer doctor generation is retiring all at once about now), etc, etc. Many people who were born and bred in the area have to commute long distances and move to the foot of the Jura or beyond to find anything affordable and big enough, and others, just have moved to the Valais Fribourg or Neuchatel area, to 'escape'.
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Old 17.01.2011, 11:41
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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Supply and demand- as ever. More immigrants, more people, more demand - higher prices.
No. As Flavio already pointed out is the cause and effect upside down in the article... Berlin has many immigrants, for sure more than Geneva. But the Turkish did not exactly raise the house prices...

The point is that Geneva and Zurich are cities with jobs. High paying jobs for highly skilled people. As there are not enough Swiss with the right training to fill those fairly specialized jobs, there are some immigrants coming in - with good salaries. They do in fact spend their money and the prices go up. So the cause is not the passport of the employees, but the salary they get.

So to put the article straight: "A lot of well paid people in any given area influence the demand and prices for real estate." What a surprise...
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  #39  
Old 17.01.2011, 12:11
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

Good point Treverus. However I've lived in Berlin, and the geography is VERY different. Berlin does have many small pretty lakes, but no border and no mountains to speak off. I love Prenzlauerberg though, but it is built up and as high as a mole hill. Geneva and indeed the whole of the Leman area is totally hemmed in, as explained before. Berlin does have some marshy areas, but technology can overcome this. So blitz every lovely medieval along the Lake, pull out all the vineyards and orchards - then fill in the Lake and flatten the Jura. The locals will just love it, I'm sure.
Mind you, it would hugely increase the value of our house over here - my kids will be delighted when we pop our clogs.
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Old 17.01.2011, 12:27
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Re: Immigration dramatically raised the price of housing in Geneva

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So to put the article straight: "A lot of well paid people in any given area influence the demand and prices for real estate." What a surprise...
But Treverus, it's sooooo much easier to blame immigration.

My stomping ground in Steuerparadis SZ is unrecognizable from the pretty, sleepy little town I moved to 7 years ago. Concrete boxes are springing up everywhere - which as a lover of tradition, I do indeed find sad.

BUT - the town budget is healthy, the school has funding. That's what the good Burgers wanted when they set out to attract 'incomers'. The long-time locals and farmers simply could not keep the town afloat as it was.

Yes, the locals are not happy with the changes they see. But they are the ones who eagerly opened pandora's box. If you want the benefits a healthy ecomomy brings, you have to put up with the rest.

(Heard in the local post: "We like Auslander* taxpayers - we just don't like Auslanders." )

*In Ausserschwyzer-speak, the term 'Outsider' refers to anyone whose great-great-great -great grandfather was not born in the valley, including those pesky tax-dodging Zürchers. Especially Zürchers. )
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