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  #61  
Old 27.01.2011, 14:54
Niranjan
 
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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The same as for a normal skydiver.

Is that sufficient information, or do you need a numeric answer for some reason?
No, that is sufficient info, thanks.
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  #62  
Old 27.01.2011, 18:18
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Well, I happen to have piloted those sailplanes for a couple of years and there are some points I'd argue:
...
- even the most modern sailplanes will not fly more than 100kmh along a cliff (unless you actually want to descend). A wingsuit makes easily 150 if I look at the videos. A crosswind is therefore even less effective.
Theory:

Actually, I think you may find that any sailplane - old or new - can ridge-run or mountain-fly at any speed up to Vmax_rough_air, as long as the prevailing lift equals or exceeds the rate of sink of the plane at that speed.

Practical:
  1. Take one bog-standard Astir CS with minimal instrumentation
  2. Execute ridge-running flight , at speeds between 90 and 110 knots (165-205kph)
  3. Apologise to those who don't like C&W music

(ASI is at top left of panel, 100knots (185kph) is at 12o'clock position )



Homework:
In 1977, Karl Striedieck set a gliding world record of 1000 miles in 14 hours.
What was his average speed, in kilometres per hour, for this flight?
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  #63  
Old 27.01.2011, 18:39
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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Theory:

Actually, I think you may find that any sailplane - old or new - can ridge-run or mountain-fly at any speed up to Vmax_rough_air, as long as the prevailing lift equals or exceeds the rate of sink of the plane at that speed.
Answer: Yes, you can. But you don't as this would be stupid. But even if you are into stupid things - it would not kill you and not make you more prone to "unpredicatable mountain winds"...

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Homework:
In 1977, Karl Striedieck set a gliding world record of 1000 miles in 14 hours.
What was his average speed, in kilometres per hour, for this flight?
You and I both know that there was no cliff anywhere near that flight. Records are today set typically either in the Amazon, where the strongest thermal weather is or in the Namib - the dryest desert with the strongest sun. In the 70s they were typically still doing record in "wave soaring". Interesting stuff, but I do not feel like preparing a lesson on it here.
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Old 27.01.2011, 19:41
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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Homework:
In 1977, Karl Striedieck set a gliding world record of 1000 miles in 14 hours.
What was his average speed, in kilometres per hour, for this flight?
You and I both know that there was no cliff anywhere near that flight. Records are today set typically either in the Amazon, where the strongest thermal weather is or in the Namib - the dryest desert with the strongest sun. In the 70s they were typically still doing record in "wave soaring". Interesting stuff, but I do not feel like preparing a lesson on it here.
Sorry to have to correct you again, but he ridge-ran the Appalachians from Pennsylvania through Virginia and West Virginia to Tennessee, and back again.
The only times he broke from ridge lift to thermal was to cross the Cumberland Gap in each direction, and to scrape home right at the end of the day.

There's an excellent book called Soar America that has a chapter in which Karl describes his record 1300km ridge-run the previous year on the same route. It also has George Moffat's description of his 50km badge flight, in a primary trainer and wearing only a suit and tie. I'd highly recommend it - I think it may surprise you how and where people were and are flying!
I got my copy as a congratulations present on my first solo, from my instructor, a chap called George Lee (I daresay you might have heard of him )

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Old 28.01.2011, 12:29
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

So, final proof from yesterday, if proof were needed, of the risk of dangerous activities

Tornado crew eject safely before aircraft crashes


Time Team man killed by "safety lance" whilst jousting



So the message is clear - if you want to live to a ripe old age, be a jet-jockey and not a TV personality
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  #66  
Old 28.01.2011, 13:06
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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So, final proof from yesterday, if proof were needed, of the risk of dangerous activities

Tornado crew eject safely before aircraft crashes


Time Team man killed by "safety lance" whilst jousting



So the message is clear - if you want to live to a ripe old age, be a jet-jockey and not a TV personality
I think 'Real' jousting back in the dark ages must have been hard core!

These battle reinactors always make me laugh, especially the Roman Army enthusiasts, They are all beardy over weight 56 year olds in poor physical shape, and they all want to be the highest rank possible!
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  #67  
Old 28.01.2011, 13:11
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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So, final proof from yesterday, if proof were needed, of the risk of dangerous activities

Tornado crew eject safely before aircraft crashes


Time Team man killed by "safety lance" whilst jousting



So the message is clear - if you want to live to a ripe old age, be a jet-jockey and not a TV personality
Your arguments are funny You still didn't answer my earlier question: why can't you see the middle path that most people take, the path that lies between the extremes of smoking away to cancer and living life on the edge, jumping off cliffs.

To me the message is clear, I would like to live the middle path that people e.g. Tom1234, Eire and others have chosen: taking moderate risk and enjoying life fully, doing stuff like MTB-ing, skiing, and climbing, have 90% of the fun at 10% of the risk as compared to climbing K2 and BASE jumping.

I definitely want to live a fulfilling life, and still be doing what you love, like Longbyt and RetiredinNH, even after being seventy-plus, rather than have a fast life with the potential to lose toes and noses, if not lives. I can show a lot of people who have dome more in 30 years than many do in 80, but without exposing their life to undue danger.

Last bit: I respect your decision to allow your son to die young doing what he loves rather than grow old with some unfulfilled dreams, however when you take such decisions I hope you will also involve many near and dear ones who also have stakes in the matter.

Have fun, whatever you choose to do, because as you said, different strokes for different people, no one can argue with that
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Old 28.01.2011, 13:19
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

Freedom means to me that people are allowed to destroy themselves if they want to, be it with cigarettes or doing high risk sports like base jumping. And I prefer to live in a society that comes up for the arising costs instead of one that regulates people's lifes strictly by banning these sports/ lifestyles.
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Old 28.01.2011, 13:42
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

Niranjan if every human who ever lived on Earth decided to only take moderate risk then the highest peaks would remain unclimbed, the great oceans unsailed, the moon would have no human foot print on its suface and pwered flight would never have been made a reality. Those who choose to take risk advance our spiecies. Heck we would never have made it out of Africa if someone had not had a sense of adventure .


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Your arguments are funny You still didn't answer my earlier question: why can't you see the middle path that most people take, the path that lies between the extremes of smoking away to cancer and living life on the edge, jumping off cliffs.

To me the message is clear, I would like to live the middle path that people e.g. Tom1234, Eire and others have chosen: taking moderate risk and enjoying life fully, doing stuff like MTB-ing, skiing, and climbing, have 90% of the fun at 10% of the risk as compared to climbing K2 and BASE jumping.

I definitely want to live a fulfilling life, and still be doing what you love, like Longbyt and RetiredinNH, even after being seventy-plus, rather than have a fast life with the potential to lose toes and noses, if not lives. I can show a lot of people who have dome more in 30 years than many do in 80, but without exposing their life to undue danger.

Last bit: I respect your decision to allow your son to die young doing what he loves rather than grow old with some unfulfilled dreams, however when you take such decisions I hope you will also involve many near and dear ones who also have stakes in the matter.

Have fun, whatever you choose to do, because as you said, different strokes for different people, no one can argue with that
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Old 28.01.2011, 13:50
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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Niranjan if every human who ever lived on Earth decided to only take moderate risk then the highest peaks would remain unclimbed, the great oceans unsailed, the moon would have no human foot print on its suface and pwered flight would never have been made a reality. Those who choose to take risk advance our spiecies. Heck we would never have made it out of Africa if someone had not had a sense of adventure .
Actually I have asked this question to myself often. Seriously, would mankind be affected in any way if K2 and ME had not been "conquered" by man? Has all these hundreds of deaths on these two mountains alone, and millions of dollars spent, improved man's life one bit? If any, there is a lot of human waste and garbage on once pristine environs...

Walking on moon or exploring territory is a different game and have a clear-headed purpose (scientific pursuits, territorial objectives etc.) Let us not compare it with BASE jumping. Heck, there is sooooo much of lovely things to do in the beauuuuuutiful Swiss mountains and it is beyond me, how people can leave all these choices and choose to hurl themselves off cliffs as their sport of choice. Maybe I am a very ordinary mortal and these things go beyond me.
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Old 28.01.2011, 13:57
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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The difference is that climbing the Matterhorn or Everest you can have a fair idea of the conditions you can be exposed to and can prepare and plan ahead accordingly (even at the pioneering stage).
Up until fairly recently Everest used to kill 30% of climbers that attempted it. They still find bodies up there that they can't recover. I would say that Everest to this day is still much more dangerous than base jumping.

I think that if people want to do these sort of things, good for them! Their families should be proud of them that they died doing something that they loved that others are too afraid of, instead of dying on their couch from too many tins of larger or from a heart attack from too many stressful business meetings.
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Old 28.01.2011, 14:02
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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I find it to be an extremely selfish sport. The jumpers know the risk with every jump. However, it's the family and friends who suffer, never knowing if the jumper will survive their next adventure.

From 1994 to 2009 there were over 20 recorded base jumping-related deaths in Lauterbrunnen.
We need a referendum ,outlawing ,every kind of jumping
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Old 28.01.2011, 14:05
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

The needs of mountaineers have advanced things like fabric technologies & climbing equipment that I would reckon have moved over into mainstream consumer use. To me the spirit of a base jumper or someone who climbs K2 is the same as those earliest pioneers who strove to fly a plane or navigate the oceans using the stars. Knowing someone who has climbed these mountains I can tell you it was in his soul, the mountains call someone like him just as I would think they did Bonnington or Hilary.

You are right though that this path is not for all, I would say it is actually only for a very small percentage of the population. The vast majority will be very content with 90% of the fun for 10% of the risk of a K2 ascent but don't knock those who do choose to take the risk.

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Actually I have asked this question to myself often. Seriously, would mankind be affected in any way if K2 and ME had not been "conquered" by man? Has all these hundreds of deaths on these two mountains alone, and millions of dollars spent, improved man's life one bit? If any, there is a lot of human waste and garbage on once pristine environs...

Walking on moon or exploring territory is a different game and have a clear-headed purpose (scientific pursuits, territorial objectives etc.) Let us not compare it with BASE jumping. Heck, there is sooooo much of lovely things to do in the beauuuuuutiful Swiss mountains and it is beyond me, how people can leave all these choices and choose to hurl themselves off cliffs.
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Old 28.01.2011, 14:17
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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Actually I have asked this question to myself often. Seriously, would mankind be affected in any way if K2 and ME had not been "conquered" by man? Has all these hundreds of deaths on these two mountains alone, and millions of dollars spent, improved man's life one bit? If any, there is a lot of human waste and garbage on once pristine environs...
Without a single moment of hesitation, yes, and yes again! It is the pioneering spirit that does this for us as a species. You cannot disconnect climbing to the top of Everest from landing on the Moon. The challenges may have been different but the driving force is the same... Do it because it might just be possible!

This from the Edmund Hillary wiki page:
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Sir Edmund Percival Hillary, KG, ONZ, KBE (20 July 1919 – 11 January 2008), was a New Zealand mountaineer, explorer and philanthropist. On 29 May 1953 at the age of 33, he and Sherpa mountaineer Tenzing Norgay became the first climbers known to have reached the summit of Mount Everest – see Timeline of climbing Mount Everest. They were part of the ninth British expedition to Everest, led by John Hunt. He was named by Time magazine as one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century.
Albert Einstein was also on the list at the number one spot because of his pioneering attitude towards math, science, physics and thought...and 500 years or more ago, the sort of behaviour that he practiced would most probably have got him killed by a church quicker than base jumping.

So, to all those pioneers, be they quantum mechanists, philosophers, astronauts, base jumpers, mountaineers, nurses, doctors, surfers or comedians, my hat off to all of you and if your attempt kills you, then consider yourself martyred in my eyes!
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Old 28.01.2011, 14:25
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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but don't knock those who do choose to take the risk.
Not saying this to you, but others:

But don't knock those who choose not to take such extreme risk either. A point repeatedly being made here (by Weejem and many others), is that unless you take such extreme risky adventures, you will end up as a smoker/cancer/stress-related death. That is wrong; i repeat, they are ignoring the middle path.

Think of Longbyt, RetiredinNH who are in upper 70s and are keen hikers, and can give any retired mountaineer (of similar age) a run for his money if they go to the mountains together today. I am sure none of us, Tom, Eire, Assassin, or I who are passionate about some moderately risky sport, smokes, and none of us are likely to die of stress-related or premature deaths, and I believe they all live highly fulfilling lives ( I was heavily influenced by them when I was new here, and they are regular posters, so I took their example). Just don't give me the bull that only if you engage in high risk stunts are you living your life fully and enjoying. There is a ton of beautiful things to engage the common man a whole lifetime, in relative safety.

Personally it is hard for me to see parallels between base jumping and other pioneering human activities, but I can see your logic somewhat.

Over and out
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Old 28.01.2011, 14:44
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

Dude, do you ever get sick of the sound of your own keyboard?

No one has knocked anybody for how they choose to live their lives. This is the whole point. We are open to letting people have the freedom to express their passion for life as they see fit.

Noone is ignoring your so called middle path. The vast majority of us live it. I include BASE jumpers in this middle path too because none of them jump with the intention of not coming back. Every time you climb a mountain there is a chance you could seriously injure yourself or worse. If you are not willing to accept that risk, don't go. Simple as that. Risk is subjective to a certain extent, what is risky for you may not be risky for me. Or I might be willing to accept the level of risk involved.

Your too extreme might be someone else's middle ground. Get over yourself.

BTW, BASE is pioneering in the same way as the first people who attempted flight were. If in 50 years all of us are able to have our own personal wingsuits to get from A to B then it will have been a spin off from todays wingsuits.
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Not saying this to you, but others:

But don't knock those who choose not to take such extreme risk either. A point repeatedly being made here (by Weejem and many others), is that unless you take such extreme risky adventures, you will end up as a smoker/cancer/stress-related death. That is wrong; i repeat, they are ignoring the middle path.

Think of Longbyt, RetiredinNH who are in upper 70s and are keen hikers, and can give any retired mountaineer (of similar age) a run for his money if they go to the mountains together today. I am sure none of us, Tom, Eire, Assassin, or I who are passionate about some moderately risky sport, smokes, and none of us are likely to die of stress-related or premature deaths, and I believe they all live highly fulfilling lives ( I was heavily influenced by them when I was new here, and they are regular posters, so I took their example). Just don't give me the bull that only if you engage in high risk stunts are you living your life fully and enjoying. There is a ton of beautiful things to engage the common man a whole lifetime, in relative safety.

Personally it is hard for me to see parallels between base jumping and other pioneering human activities, but I can see your logic somewhat.

Over and out
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Old 28.01.2011, 15:00
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Passive smoking in nonsense.

Tom
This is really insane
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Old 28.01.2011, 15:02
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Risk is subjective to a certain extent, what is risky for you may not be risky for me. Or I might be willing to accept the level of risk involved.

Your too extreme might be someone else's middle ground. Get over yourself.
I am not as well-informed about this sport as you are, so you can have the last word, but are you seriously disputing the fact (or common perception) that BASE jumping is in a different league of risk as compared to hiking, skiing or climbing? The article linked by the OP says:

"Base jumping is one of the world's most dangerous recreational activities and in 2002 it was estimated that there were 60 fatalities, which accounted for 1.7 per cent of participants."

Are you saying this is not far higher than most other adventure sports? And you are comparing a solitary recreational activity, that is barely legal in many places, with going to the moon and other state-sponsored undertakings

p.s. I think we are having a civilized debate here, so you can refrain from groaning. Thanks
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Old 28.01.2011, 15:11
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You still didn't answer my earlier question: why can't you see the middle path that most people take, the path that lies between the extremes of smoking away to cancer and living life on the edge, jumping off cliffs.

To me the message is clear, I would like to live the middle path that people e.g. Tom1234, Eire and others have chosen: taking moderate risk and enjoying life fully, doing stuff like MTB-ing, skiing, and climbing, have 90% of the fun at 10% of the risk as compared to climbing K2 and BASE jumping.
Actually, we agree on this - if you read my "risk analysis" again, you'll see that the majority of the roles I mentioned are in the low-to-medium area of the risk spectrum.

You won't get me to BASE jump for all the tea in China, but the point I was trying to make was that it lies on the spectrum of risk, and whilst the vast majority of us (myself included) wince at the thought of it, others accept that level of risk. But, and here's the big but, that doesn't mean that these jumpers are stupid and have a death wish - I think it's quite the opposite, namely that they are full of life and their preparations are meticulous. Unfortunately, there is i) a high risk of something going wrong, and ii) the impact of any such incident is almost inevitably, well, impact.

And, for me at least, it''s really interesting is to compare the risks of BASE jumping with that of climbing K2 - 77 deaths in 302 ascents - or the Eiger Nordwand - 64 deaths since 1938 - and then to reflect that our reaction to hearing that a climber's been killed on the Mordwand seems to be very different from how a lot of people react to hearing the same news about a base jumper. I don't think I can ever recall someone describing a dead climber as "selfish" or having a "death wish", but soon as a base jumper hits the news, well, the gloves are off...!


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I definitely want to live a fulfilling life, and still be doing what you love, like Longbyt and RetiredinNH, even after being seventy-plus, rather than have a fast life with the potential to lose toes and noses, if not lives. I can show a lot of people who have dome more in 30 years than many do in 80, but without exposing their life to undue danger.
Me too!

But the key phrase you tried to sneak in there unnoticed is "undue danger"

The whole of human endeavour carries risk, everything we choose to do has implications, everything we choose not to do has implications - whether we like it or not, whether we are aware of it or not:
  • Safest airline to fly? Quantas, of course!!! Why? Because Quantas don't crash. Simples! Everybody know that!
  • Except, of course, Quantas do crash.

I drive the missus mad, I do, because I always absolutely refuse to move the car until everyone's seatbelts are done up. It's a little thing I do to manage risk. Of course, there's not really any risk, so I'm just being "over-the-top".

Funnily enough, she's been strangely quiet since the beginning of last week, when we nearly smacked into the 50-odd tons of trees and mud that had decided to dump itself across our driveway earlier that night, in the dark, and behind a blind curve with the approach concealed by very large bushes.



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Old 28.01.2011, 15:20
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Re: British base jumper dies in Switzerland

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Actually, we agree on this - if you read my "risk analysis" again, you'll see that the majority of the roles I mentioned are in the low-to-medium area of the risk spectrum.

You won't get me to BASE jump for all the tea in China, but the point I was trying to make was that it lies on the spectrum of risk, and whilst the vast majority of us (myself included) wince at the thought of it, others accept that level of risk. But, and here's the big but, that doesn't mean that these jumpers are stupid and have a death wish - I think it's quite the opposite, namely that they are full of life and their preparations are meticulous. Unfortunately, there is i) a high risk of something going wrong, and ii) the impact of any such incident is almost inevitably, well, impact.

And, for me at least, it''s really interesting is to compare the risks of BASE jumping with that of climbing K2 - 77 deaths in 302 ascents - or the Eiger Nordwand - 64 deaths since 1938 - and then to reflect that our reaction to hearing that a climber's been killed on the Mordwand seems to be very different from how a lot of people react to hearing the same news about a base jumper. I don't think I can ever recall someone describing a dead climber as "selfish" or having a "death wish", but soon as a base jumper hits the news, well, the gloves are off...!
Here's one:

Alison Hargreaves was one such lady. She dies on K2 and left behind a husband and two young children.
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