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Old 29.01.2011, 12:55
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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even the most ridiculous results.
Who decides whether the results are ridiculous?
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  #22  
Old 29.01.2011, 13:25
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For those who are too lazy to read the summary I linked above:
The democracy deficiencies preventing Switzerland to score higher in this ranking were mainly
1.lack of separation of powers between the legislative, executive and judiciary powers
2.lack of transparency re political party financing
3.low turnout at voting

For those of you form a UK/US background:
- Switzerland does not have anything resembling an impeachment process for Federal Council members
- Switzerland's judges are appointed by political parties, not elected or career judges
- there is no independent Supreme Court equivalent in Switzerland dealing with constitutional matters
- the Federal Council has a track record of telling Federal judges what to do. If you think that Blair was Bush's poodle: Read the reports on the Tinner case and you will realize that Blocher was Bush's Chihuahua.
-party financing is a mystery at best

If you believe that this is a perfect democracy: Direct voting is great, but a democracy does not mean that a majority should be able mob ethnic or religious minorities via direct voting without strong checks and balances.

I think this is a good democracy, but it takes a few steps from good to great. Rejecting constructive criticism outright is not the first step on this journey.
I read the summary, thanks. 3 out of 100 indicators? We need them all, and we need to know how they are all weighted to produce this index. Finally then we can evaluate them all one by one, with an eye on how they interact.

Not sure what you are getting at with the judicial appointment comment, since all US judges are appointed as well. Some (few) individual states have elected judiciaries, but not the federal govt. Why i said you need to look at the whole picture, keeping an eye on how things interact, is because it doesn't necessarily mean that an elected judiciary would be more democratic, especially with unlimited money being allowed to be thrown at campaigns.

It's all a balance. Do you really want a US style supreme court here? They took away florida's political participation in 2000 by appointing bush, in a completely partisan decision. They have been bullying the states and the federal govt for over 200 yrs by just making shit up, totally against the popular will of the people. US judicial review couldn't be more undemocratic. Why is it automatically better for the other two branches of govt to tell the courts what to do than vice versa?

Participation is important, but it depends on whether it would make a difference or not. In the US lots of people don't bother voting because each state has its number of votes, say 5 for hawaii, and then the winner in that state gets those five votes. Since obaba was a foregone conclusion in hi, many republicans didn't bother voting. Many democrats didnt vote either. What's the point, most people think. I knew many people who were huge supporters of obama who didnt vote, simply because they knew he would win the 5 votes, not to mention the fact that 5 votes isnt that much to begin with. Sure this would get absurd if everyone thought like that. Point is just that the electoral college is responsible for what looks like voter apathy, and what looks like voter apathy may not really be apathy, and may not mean that not enough people had their say.

So the "voter turnout" indicator might not be indicative of much, since it doesn't factor in these external influences.

Money in politics? That's all us politicians do: raise funds for re-election. There is no time to do any work.
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Old 29.01.2011, 13:30
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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against the popular will of the people.
Given that more than 75% of the people of the United States are Christians, don't you consider that to be a good thing?
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  #24  
Old 29.01.2011, 13:37
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Who decides whether the results are ridiculous?
Anyone. You could. This is a good place to use your favourite word: opinion. But you can also say more about it, in the form of an argument. In my opinion it's ridiculous to publish the results of this study without including ALL the criteria used to come up "with the index, otherwise all we have is something that seems, intuitively, ridiculous, based on what i know about politics.
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Old 29.01.2011, 13:44
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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Anyone. You could. This is a good place to use your favourite word: opinion. But you can also say more about it, in the form of an argument. In my opinion it's ridiculous to publish the results of this study without including ALL the criteria used to come up "with the index, otherwise all we have is something that seems, intuitively, ridiculous, based on what i know about politics.
I wasn't talking about the study, but don't let that stop you...
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Old 29.01.2011, 13:51
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I wasn't talking about the study, but don't let that stop you...
My bad :/ the internets is hard on a phone. Good point then!
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Old 29.01.2011, 14:41
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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Or whether you think that direct voting justifies even the most ridiculous results.
Who decides whether the results are ridiculous?
I guess, xkcd does...
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Old 29.01.2011, 14:42
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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I guess, xkcd does...
Thank goodness for checks and balances!
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  #29  
Old 29.01.2011, 15:58
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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I read the summary, thanks. 3 out of 100 indicators?
You confuse topics (of which I listed three re Switzerland) with indicators. You can have multiple indicators cover one area.
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Old 29.01.2011, 16:04
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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In my opinion it's ridiculous to publish the results of this study without including ALL the criteria used to come up "with the index, otherwise all we have is something that seems, intuitively, ridiculous, based on what i know about politics.
But it is not ridiculous to ridicule a scientific study based solely on what you or other people on the forum know or believe to know about certain countries ? I am not saying that no criticism of the study should be allowed, but most of the statements here seems to be along the lines of "I lived in/read about/know someone from country X, therefore I am qualified to know better."
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  #31  
Old 29.01.2011, 16:10
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But it is not ridiculous to ridicule a scientific study based solely on what you or other people on the forum know or believe to know about certain countries ? I am not saying that no criticism of the study should be allowed, but most of the statements here seems to be along the lines of "I lived in/read about/know someone from country X, "therefore I am qualified to know better."
This is an example of a straw man, higgy. (It was higgy, right?).
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  #32  
Old 29.01.2011, 16:14
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

Interesting (and IMHO quite good) interview about that study.

Das ist ein sehr deutsches Staatsverständnis (sorry, in German only)
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  #33  
Old 29.01.2011, 16:18
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Interesting (and IMHO quite good) interview about that study.

Das ist ein sehr deutsches Staatsverständnis (sorry, in German only)
I ran it through google translate and it came up with, "daboy is essentially right. That study is bollocks."

Sent from my ZTE-BLADE
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Old 29.01.2011, 16:30
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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Interesting (and IMHO quite good) interview about that study.

Das ist ein sehr deutsches Staatsverständnis (sorry, in German only)
Did you read the last part of the interview, where the guy agrees that an impeachment mechanism and a constitutional court should be established in Switzerland ? That is exactly what the study referred to as two (of three) main areas of possible improvement.
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Old 29.01.2011, 16:32
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Did you read the last part of the interview, where the guy agrees that an impeachment mechanism and a constitutional court should be established in Switzerland ? That is exactly what the study referred to as two (of three) main areas of possible improvement.
Did you read the swiss constitution which seems to enable the swiss to enact such a mechanism if they so desired to, democratically?
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Old 29.01.2011, 16:41
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

.

.
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Old 29.01.2011, 17:32
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

A stab in the heart for every decent Swiss!
But maybe that stimulates a discussion about the slightly arrogant view that direct democracy is the only valid form of democracy.
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Old 29.01.2011, 17:34
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A stab in the heart for every decent Swiss!
But maybe that stimulates a discussion about the slightly arrogant view that direct democracy is the only valid form of democracy.
It's a stab in the heart that they would waste money on the study.
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Old 29.01.2011, 18:29
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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Did you read the swiss constitution which seems to enable the swiss to enact such a mechanism if they so desired to, democratically?
Yep. And if you wanted to rely on direct voting only for changing the politial landscape in Switzerland women would still not be allowed to vote over here.

No one requires Switzerland to change anything in their politial system. But then the next political study will come up with a similar result. But hey, who cares, as long as you believe the SVP telling you that Switzerland with its current status quo is the best place in the world.
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Old 29.01.2011, 18:31
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Re: Uni Zurich compares democracies, CH ranks 14th (of 30)

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Yep. And if you wanted to rely on direct voting only for changing the politial landscape in Switzerland women would still not be allowed to vote over here.
You say that like it's a bad thing...

Anyway, you still haven't explained to us who gets to decide what is a ridiculous proposition and what isn't, if it isn't the people.

Well?
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