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  #21  
Old 30.01.2011, 00:42
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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Just one question---is the topic of this thread on whether Switzerland was "built on the blood of the oppressed" (which I personally think is ridiculous) or whether any other countries qualify for that title? For the record, my country qualifies because of the history of slavery.
My understanding is that the key question was "How would you tell a hypocritical tw@t of a politician to go and eff himself, in a sufficiently succinct way that even a politician would understand??"
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  #22  
Old 30.01.2011, 00:46
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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My understanding is that the key question was "How would you tell a hypocritical tw@t of a politician to go and eff himself, in a sufficiently succinct way that even a politician would understand??"
Yes, exactly!
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  #23  
Old 30.01.2011, 00:47
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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.......skip....



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Old 30.01.2011, 01:00
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

I guess almost every country there is has been a complete bunch of dicks to some group of people at some point, whether they were part of the country or otherwise.
Now, I love reading history from the last century - I've got a big collection of WW2 stuff, but not for a minute do I look at the modern country of Germany and think 'well, you guys did this, thus negating anything you've done ever since."
Read history, learn history, even love history, but don't negate an entire country's current presence for something that may have happened generations ago. Far more important is whether they have done something about the offending practice and what they are doing now.
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  #25  
Old 30.01.2011, 01:01
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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250,000 mg? I find that hard to swallow...
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Old 30.01.2011, 03:11
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

When a country I am identified with is attacked that way, thus attacking me through that, I tend to just through an example of that person's country's history at his face. It's easy, there are plenty of blood in every country. Even "disneyland-country" Danmark prepared the lists of communists to give to the nazis as soon as they got invaded in order to get rid of them without having to do the dirty work. Superwelcoming Amsterdam also has the issue of Anne Frank, who was arrested by the Dutch and not the Germans... One always finds something. For UK, it's not exactly a hard nut either
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Old 30.01.2011, 04:05
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

1/ Encourage the speaker to give a full description of what their problem is - the longer and more detailed the better.
2/ Reply politely "Excuse me, but I think you've mistaken me for someone who gives a sh1t."
3/ Turn back to previous conversation / walk away / hang up / log off, according to context.

Simples.


So, enough teasing - who was it nd where can we find them online?
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Old 30.01.2011, 04:07
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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When a country I am identified with is attacked that way, thus attacking me through that, I tend to just through an example of that person's country's history at his face. It's easy, there are plenty of blood in every country. Even "disneyland-country" Danmark prepared the lists of communists to give to the nazis as soon as they got invaded in order to get rid of them without having to do the dirty work. Superwelcoming Amsterdam also has the issue of Anne Frank, who was arrested by the Dutch and not the Germans... One always finds something. For UK, it's not exactly a hard nut either
Denmark gets a pass from me for World War II because they went out of their way to save their Jewish citizens. (That doesn't mean what happened to the Danish communists was right, but if everyone acted like the Danes the Germans would have had a MUCH tougher job with the Holocaust.) A better example of the dark side of Danish history is what the Vikings did during their "goodwill tour" of Europe.
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Old 30.01.2011, 11:31
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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So, enough teasing - who was it nd where can we find them online?
As much as I wish it was an MP or a really public figure it was just some twit from Hampshire who is a friend of a friend on Facebook.

I responded with two points:
1. One that was raised here most that was the UK has a much worse track record and current behaviour.
2. Just because of Stuart Eizenstat's report and following book that have both been refuted by much more respected and demonstrable witnesses and history itself, does not mean that Switzerland's success is built on war profiteering. In fact the Swiss economy earns only about 10% of its income from Banking, less than the UK.

I find it ironic that during these debates after people had finished blaming all of the active partners in the conflicts around the world to be able to sustain their vitriol and anger, they find themselves having to turn their indignation on the neutral nations to justify their outrage.

One can't really afford to apologise I feel but rather have to either just end up calling the persona an idiot or simply point out the truth. The insulting option for me ends up being the more satisfying one in most cases because these types of people are seldom susceptible to the truth.


Anyway, thanks all for your contributions to this whole discussion. One of the large factors that made me pick up and move to Switzerland was the politics of neutrality and the success of the country so I feel very strongly about the whole issue as it does reflect on me personally.
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  #30  
Old 30.01.2011, 11:39
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

So, in fact, not a politician at all then ... so you whole first post is a little fabricated , cos you "talked to a man in the pub"
I talked to a man in the pub and he thinks space aliens are living amongst us .....

Trolling as suspected

Britain's heritage is based on being colonialist - as was France's , Germany's, Holland's, The Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Chinese, the Vikings, The Japanese, The Spanish etc and the Roman Catholic Church It's possibly time to get over it ... Applying 21st century sensibilities to 17th century issues is hardly credible...
You failed to answer the role your home country has played in surpressing people ?
I seem to remember the ZA army, the ZA police and Boss having a complete disregards to humanity ... or are you now Swiss?
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  #31  
Old 30.01.2011, 11:54
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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So, in fact, not a politician at all then ... so you whole first post is a little fabricated , cos you "talked to a man in the pub"
I talked to a man in the pub and he thinks space aliens are living amongst us .....
Um, no, he is in politics in Hampshire, an elected official and it was not in a pub...so it is not fabricated in any way. Or as you saying that just because a politician is not an MP or highly publically visible, he is not in fact a politician?

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Trolling as suspected
Not quite. I don't see how my post was inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic so I find that a bit offensive. It was a simple question about a debate on how you deal with people's criticisms about Switzerland in the light of thier financial success.

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You failed to answer the role your home country has played in surpressing people ?
I seem to remember the ZA army, the ZA police and Boss having a complete disregards to humanity ... or are you now Swiss?
Sorry, I did not actually notice anybody ask the question, but I have no problem answering it.
I was born a South African citizen not through choice. My family were activists during the appartheid years with my mother being arrested a number of times for her work with the red cross and her political stand point. When I left South Africa (due to the economy and thier polical history and current behaviour) and gained my UK citizenship, I lost my South African citizenship and have no problems with that. It is my intention to become Swiss and then I won't particularly care about my UK citizenship.
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  #32  
Old 30.01.2011, 12:21
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

I've had a similar thing happen but it wasn't a UK politician (who are, like all politicians, reprehensible regardless of party affiliation).

Basically, you've got wind the person up. In my case, I agreed and said that I was taking lessons on 'abuse of the common man' (his accusation) and found that this was the best opportunity. I mean, why go to some second-rate African kleptocracy when you can learn about it here without having the risk of being eviscerated by some machete-wielding nutter. The classes are not only more interesting, but there are no flies...

This monologue went on a minute or so, until the idiot realized I was taking the piss.

Another alternative would be to memorize Eric Idle's rant in 'The Holy Grail' and see if he figures it out.

Lots of fun winding people up like that.
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  #33  
Old 30.01.2011, 12:22
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Old 30.01.2011, 12:35
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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So, in fact, not a politician at all then ... so you whole first post is a little fabricated , cos you "talked to a man in the pub"
I talked to a man in the pub and he thinks space aliens are living amongst us .....

Trolling as suspected

Britain's heritage is based on being colonialist - as was France's , Germany's, Holland's, The Austro-Hungarian Empire, the Chinese, the Vikings, The Japanese, The Spanish etc and the Roman Catholic Church It's possibly time to get over it ... Applying 21st century sensibilities to 17th century issues is hardly credible...
You failed to answer the role your home country has played in surpressing people ?
I seem to remember the ZA army, the ZA police and Boss having a complete disregards to humanity ... or are you now Swiss?
The vikings? HUH? Since were the vikings colonialists? Either they went to loot and plunder....or they were trading gods...but colonialists...
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Old 30.01.2011, 12:36
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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Denmark gets a pass from me for World War II because they went out of their way to save their Jewish citizens. (That doesn't mean what happened to the Danish communists was right, but if everyone acted like the Danes the Germans would have had a MUCH tougher job with the Holocaust.) A better example of the dark side of Danish history is what the Vikings did during their "goodwill tour" of Europe.
A third example for Danmark is the slave trade in the west indies... the point being that one always finds something. You choose the one you like best out of what you know, what ever works for you.

I even had it with an Icelander (and I love those people dearly, so I had a hard time being bitchy) but their women almost all come from slaves raped and kidnapped in Irland and northern Scottland. That's how they manage to make the following generations. But I must say the guy had lots of irony about it, so it ended up in a fun conversation. Such great people,even the bitchy ones end up being fun.

However, when stupid people take too much space in the conversation, the most efficient way can be to compliment them ironically "you are right, you are the best, you are beautiful, we all love you etc..." I may use that technique if I can leave the place quickly, because hearing non sens for long is not a hobby of mine.
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  #36  
Old 30.01.2011, 12:43
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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but their women almost all come from slaves raped and kidnapped in Irland and northern Scottland. That's how they manage to make the following generations.
That doesn't sound right. I've always found Icelandic women rather good looking.
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  #37  
Old 30.01.2011, 14:53
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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The vikings? HUH? Since were the vikings colonialists? Either they went to loot and plunder....or they were trading gods...but colonialists...
Without a doubt they were. They had Ireland, Scotland, most of England, parts of Russia at times.
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  #38  
Old 30.01.2011, 14:57
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

Simple answer:

"And all that wickedness and oppression has culminated, in 2011, in a delightfully hefty salary of which you and your kind, in your nasty, dreary, benighted country can only dream. Top up? I believe it's my round again..."
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Old 30.01.2011, 15:06
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

This sums up the Viking bit much better than I could:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion
Basically, the two main things to be learnt from history are 1) Groups of people can be extraordinarliy dickish at times; and 2) they only remember the good bits about themselves and the bad bits about others.
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Old 30.01.2011, 16:01
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Re: Defending the country built on the blood of the oppressed!

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Okay, so today again I was accosted by somebody on the Internet (a UK politician this time) who told me that I should be ashamed for living in a country that built its financial success on the blood of oppressed people.

I am not sure about the exact connotation, you know, Nazi gold, Sudanese Warlord bank accounts, etc.

I am pretty sure that you have heard them all by this stage.

How do you all deal with this sort of thing?
What is your response?
Do you defend the country or just grin and pat your wallet?
Do you think it is true or false?

Okay, let the fun begin!
I think it's crazy to claim that moving to Switzerland is immoral. That guy is simply not very educated, and not very good at putting forth a coherent argument.

1) You are not responsible for any of those things happening.
2) You might benefit from them, but that's not the purpose of your moving there. Any benefit is incidental.
3) The degree of exploitation is highly debatable.
4) Any benefits of exploitation are unevenly distributed.

What you should do about it? Well, most people who put out such moral claims can easily be exposed as hypocrites. Try and find a white person in Britain whose ancestors didn't benefit from the slave trade, or the opium war. The economy is big, and the further back you go, the more ancestors you have.
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