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  #81  
Old 08.02.2011, 20:20
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Do you ever do anything else?
Yes. Most of the time.

But if we're having a political discussion and it's about opinion, then of course you're going to have a hard time avoiding words like 'should'. In fact, if you're voting, you're pretty much saying, "I think this person ought to get in to office or these policies ought to be carried out".

Was your silly post about 'liberal democracy' somehow value neutral?

Of course, nearly all western developed nations are 'liberal democracies'. Even David Cameron has been known to agree and support that idea.

It wasn't me coming out with a rant about conservatism or something . . . I'm merely pointing out where you're being unfair.
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  #82  
Old 08.02.2011, 20:30
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Was your silly post about 'liberal democracy' somehow value neutral?
Oh, that's your beef. You saw the word "liberal" and leapt to conclusions.

Well, here. Let me educate you: Liberal Democracy

Do you always take offence where there is none to take, or are you just in a shitstirring mood this evening?
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  #83  
Old 08.02.2011, 20:42
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Well, here. Let me educate you: Liberal Democracy
Would it be rude to ask to continue any comments on that over here?
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  #84  
Old 08.02.2011, 20:44
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

Stephanie, the educational system needs to be modernized to comply with the current society. I fully agree with you, it's very difficult for any woman to balance work and childcare without any help. Nothing is structured to help us.

I really wish we'd vote on that kind of subject, it would help families so much if we had a better infrastructure.
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  #85  
Old 08.02.2011, 20:44
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Would it be rude to ask to continue any comments on that over here?
Sure, go ahead. I just presumed that most people knew what "liberal democracy" meant without having it explained to them.
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  #86  
Old 08.02.2011, 20:51
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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I just presumed
Good thing you did not asume.... Seriously though, some nice concise answers may be good.
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  #87  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:13
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Stephanie, the educational system needs to be modernized to comply with the current society. I fully agree with you, it's very difficult for any woman to balance work and childcare without any help. Nothing is structured to help us.

I really wish we'd vote on that kind of subject, it would help families so much if we had a better infrastructure.

There seems to be a vote coming up in Basel Stadt on all day schools. So far I've seen lots of SP posters supporting it. So I'd imagine there's a vote and real possibility for all day schools in Basel Stadt soon. Basel Stadt seem to be a fairly progressive Canton.

Too late and wrong Canton for me to benefit (I'm in BL) - but great news for all the families who will benefit from it. Just wish this wasn't such a Canton to Canton issue, it would be great if it were implemented nationally. I realize this isn't how Swiss politics works, but there are certain issues such as health care and education which, in my opinion, really do need to be centrally controlled and standardized, otherwise it's a real lottery and services/treatment vary depending on where you happen to live.

Of course we saw this clearly with the whole issue of women's right to vote where certain Cantons left it as late as the early 80's to implement this.

Something else I think would further benefit families and certainly benefit teachers too would be starting classes at a more civilized hour of day. It's a fact that teens need more sleep due to the huge development and changes they go through mentally and physically, yet, they have to be in class by 7.20am !! I teach this age group and can see that very little seems to stick at this time in the morning, basically everyone is trying to stay awake. My son's teacher tells me the same thing.

Much more reasonable, start at 8.30 include lunch and end at a reasonable time like 4pm.
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  #88  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:28
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

Oh too late for me to, but I do know what you mean, I felt the same way when the right to paid maternity leave was voted in.
Before (in a my era, though it wasn't so long ago I'm not the grandma I paint on EF) the only legal requirement was 2 months off of which 2 weeks paid per year of service.
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  #89  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:32
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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I realize this isn't how Swiss politics works, but there are certain issues such as health care and education which, in my opinion, really do need to be centrally controlled and standardized, otherwise it's a real lottery and services/treatment vary depending on where you happen to live.
But that is the beauty of how the system works here. If you want something, canvas your local community, if enough people agree, get something started to get a vote on it. That way you don't need to try and change the whole nation's mind, just your local community.

That was the whole point that I was trying to make was that if enough people in a community here want to change something, it will change. Complaining about it is not enough, talking about it, finding agreement and then getting it voted through is what changes things.
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  #90  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:45
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

I am glad that Switzerland leads the way in having a good number of women in government.
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  #91  
Old 08.02.2011, 21:55
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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I am glad that Switzerland leads the way in having a good number of women in government.

Yes - that is very positive. Just would be great if they could push women and family issues a little harder though! The presence of women in power doesn't automatically mean much if the millions of women in wider society continue to live under restrictive circumstances because of un-friendly policy.

But as Colin said, maybe the situation is a reflection of what the women themselves want, perhaps this issue of crazy school hours is only an issue in areas like Basel, Neuchatel/Geneva and Zurich?

If this really is the case, it is rather strange. I mean if the school hours are actually a reflection of what the majority of women want in certain cantons then what does that say about the place of women in education and work in Switzerland? Even stranger, what does this say about many women's idea of the place of women in Switzerland in education and the workplace
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  #92  
Old 08.02.2011, 22:03
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Even stranger, what does this say about many women's idea of the place of women in Switzerland in education and the workplace
that we are perhaps, more conservative than we're willing to admit ?
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  #93  
Old 09.02.2011, 08:48
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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It seems that your problem are local/Cantonal not generally Swiss Stephanie. Here in Neuchatel, kids have the same hours every day- and only Wednesday pm free.
Same in Ticino, and their lunch hour was shorter than mine, so I was always home when they were.

Tom
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  #94  
Old 09.02.2011, 11:49
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Oh, that's your beef. You saw the word "liberal" and leapt to conclusions.

Well, here. Let me educate you: Liberal Democracy

Do you always take offence where there is none to take, or are you just in a shitstirring mood this evening?
I jumped to no conclusions.

The wiki link makes no mentions of liberal democracy being founded on the assumption of the rational individual. Instead it just mentions ideas of suffrage and other rights and also states, as I did, that liberal democracy is in place in most developed nations.

Perhaps you are getting mixed up with economics which does have the assumption of a rational agent subject to incentives.

You were the one stirring things up with your strangely motivated misrepresentation of liberal democracy. I'm just pointing out where you're wrong.

It's bizarre that you're criticising liberal democracy ('riseable assumptions') in a thread about women gaining the vote in Switzerland. This was a move towards a more liberal democracy as it widened suffrage.
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Old 09.02.2011, 12:25
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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It's bizarre that you're criticising liberal democracy
I'm not criticising liberal democracy.

You're just too pig-headed to actually bother to read what my post was actually about.
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  #96  
Old 09.02.2011, 12:42
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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I'm not criticising liberal democracy.

You're just too pig-headed to actually bother to read what my post was actually about.
I've read through your post many times.

Is this not some form of criticism?

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The thing is that liberal democracy relies upon various things that are, quite frankly, slightly risible in the real world.
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Liberal democracy presumes that we are all rational islands in a sea of presumption, when all the evidence suggests that all of us - even the clever people at dinner parties in North London - are prisoners of our own cultures, our own prejudices, our own preconceived ideas.
Also . . .

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Have you ever, honestly, met a truly rational political creature?
. . . this shows a fairly shallow understanding of the concept of rationality.

My main point though is that you incorrectly characterise liberal democracy and what it relies on.

Oh, and there you go with your inverse snobbery again ("North London dinner parties")
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  #97  
Old 10.02.2011, 15:11
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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...which is why I was thinking about organising a 'proper' structure - rent a room (perhaps even at the school- worth discussing with them) and take turns and/or employ staff for lunch-time supervision. You can't be the only one in your area struggling with this.
It's the same as with day cares, Odile. The minute you want to organise something, you run into regulations and in the end the offices you will have to see, papers to submit, people to call, etc you won't have time to even have a job. And, I can't see many locals actually chippin in. They have their families who help out, mostly. And most of the expact moms are actually stay at home moms, to find a job isn't easy. Absolutely all local moms I know here have a giant help from their families which saves them thousands a month. Things aren't as easy here, the administrative trouble to actually employ somebody in this day care center would be a hustle, hygiene regulations, safety, insurance, licensing, etc etc. Too much cash. Just remember, it was not long ago, the oficials here expected that family members here who baby sit for free get a license and pay fees...

Boondocks, lemi tell ya.

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There seems to be a vote coming up in Basel Stadt on all day schools.
Let me know when, so I can move. You are either stuck at home, and saving family money, or juggling all you can to get a bit of career, but then you child hits the 4yr enfantine and one does what now..I was shocked to find out one does not have full time care here, with after school hours, reces, etc. It's about 20fr a month, back home, with 3fr a lunch. System is making some humongous cash here on people who want a family. And even if one is willing to pay, you don't get a spot.

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Of course we saw this clearly with the whole issue of women's right to vote where certain Cantons left it as late as the early 80's to implement this.
Late woman's right to vote explain absolutely the same principle. It's society mobbing the weakest ones.

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Much more reasonable, start at 8.30 include lunch and end at a reasonable time like 4pm.
Well, I tell a secret, it is not much better at 8:30 I do my preps at 7am, it's the best.

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The presence of women in power doesn't automatically mean much if the millions of women in wider society continue to live under restrictive circumstances because of un-friendly policy.
Formality. So we see a couple of visible females, but do they really get into middle management? I think loads of work positions are reserved for army buddies...

It's not only big cities that lack places in day cares. Village areas as well, but there, there aren't really jobs either, so the moms can pretty much just stay at home with kids. It is expected and suggested to them. Or, you find an expensive day care in a city, work there as well, but have to spend a lot of time travelling, which people don't seem to want to do here. I don't blame them. But at least the chicks get out of their little isolation in the mountains. I have been there, no work, services sucked since there was no competition, no day care, big commute anywhere with any decent job market. I wouldn't put it down if there are people willing to go through this, but for a newcomer with limited language skills, not a very brights scenario.
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  #98  
Old 12.02.2011, 21:51
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

May Swiss women and women everywhere 'run with the wolves'

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  #99  
Old 14.02.2011, 19:03
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Same in Ticino, and their lunch hour was shorter than mine, so I was always home when they were.
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It seems that your problem are local/Cantonal not generally Swiss Stephanie. Here in Neuchatel, kids have the same hours every day- and only Wednesday pm free.
Consider yourselves to have been very lucky.. this is absolutely not the case elsewhere.

In many places, it can be really difficult for mothers if they have more than one child especially. Try organizing a timetable when you've got two or three kids with different lunch hours, moringing and afternoon hours. Forget the possibility of being able to work if you're going to try and swing it on your own.
Fortunately it seems that the harmonisation may be up for a vote soon and hopefully the vote will be for the mamas.
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Old 12.06.2011, 17:08
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

I just realised that when I was in Appenzell Innerhoden recently it was the 20th anniversary of the first time that women were allowed to vote.

I came across this interesting audio archive from 1990 with a local man discussing the issue:

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Women have other things to do than to make politics, much more important ...
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