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  #121  
Old 03.07.2011, 20:15
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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As Marian Keyes put it, "Now and then, when they've had a few drinks, their team has won and they're generally in a benign humour, men will let a woman or two into the higher strata of the workplace. Just for the novelty value, of course. Sort of like getting a pet."
I think the rate of female top managers in Switzerland was something around 3%? So technically the statement is correct, there are some. Just for the novelty value.
Well, my company (30 people) has NO managers, male or female! (I HATE managers, regardless of gender).

Tom
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Old 03.07.2011, 22:19
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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As Marian Keyes put it, "Now and then, when they've had a few drinks, their team has won and they're generally in a benign humour, men will let a woman or two into the higher strata of the workplace. Just for the novelty value, of course. Sort of like getting a pet."
I think the rate of female top managers in Switzerland was something around 3%? So technically the statement is correct, there are some. Just for the novelty value.
3% ? You must be joking ! It rather is between 43% and 63% !! Unless you mean the top-top-top strata of chairmen and CEOs of big corporations which indeed still is a male domain admittedly. But please check up the dragons in their frontrooms
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  #123  
Old 05.07.2011, 01:31
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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- That they do not have to do military service is their privilege
- They are not holding positions occasionnally but all over
- Not only can women nowadays most easily have fully separate bank accounts completely under their control, they even when marrying can have Güter-Trennung so that even ownership of the household is separated. And also without Güter-Trennung, a separate account means separate correspondence. The bank-correspondence for my mother was NEVER addressed to my father. And THIS is general rule. For some reasons unknown, your account runs under YOUR name. If it runs under the name of you both, then they at the bank will automatically put the husband into the correspondence as addressee
- the practical day-to-day realities have changed decades ago. It very often is a difference family-internally where many women still accept the rule of their husbands. Immigration has not improved this side of things, as most immigrants came from countries where the position of women is miles worse than in Switzerland.
- women in Switzerland ARE officially "real" people in Switzerland, with equal rights. A discussion points are equal salaries for the same work. The problem is known, but to solve it in full will take ages, just as in other comparable countries.



Regardless of whether it is about private accounts or company accounts, we all have to go through a little round of verification every single time we make a phone-call to any of the banks in question. If they gave the info to your husband without any further verification it simply was gross negligence and most clearly against their own regulations. That your husband possibly has a certain "authoritative" way is no excuse at all. But possibly an explanation
While women are treated differently by agencies such as banks and are allowed to be paid less for doing the same job then they are only equal in theory not in reality. The official "equal" rights of which you speak are just vapour dreams.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. If I, as the man, choose to stay at home, then the discrimination against women actually has a real and tangible effect on me and my family. After all, if my wife doesn't make as much as a man for doing the same job, then I am being punished. The traditionalist line that one hears about protecting the mans ability to earn for his family is obviously crap as there is still one primary earner for one family. And this is what is ruining it for all of us. If the person best qualified to be the primary earner in a family is the wife and yet she can't do it as well as her husband simply by virtue of the fact that she doesn't have a Y chromosome then the family unit is damaged by that loss of income. The same applies if the wrong person ends up as the primary caregiver. Not all men are suited to the world of high end corporate dealing and not all women are best suited to be home makers and primary care givers. It would be better for society in general if a family in a position to decide these matters was actually left to do what was best for themselves. Because, in the long run society benefits from happier families and mentally better adjusted children. At least in my world view it would be better. Maybe someone has a vested interest in not seeing this happen but that seems pretty paranoid.
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  #124  
Old 05.07.2011, 02:39
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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What does this have to do with nativism and sexism...?

Sweden is one of the most self-critical country on this earth, here in Switzerland when you critic something people get upset and take it personal. In Sweden, we think a second before reacting emotionally, and we definately not get rude and start howling...

It's only due to self-critisism and self-objectivity that you can evolve as a country.

Only some years back our national holiday was "red" = dont have to work. We are not a very patriotic country only when it comes to sport!

And do not get me started on the whole women situation...swedish men have been castrated ages ago.

Of course there are many things Sweden what I still dislike...but it's the most average country in the world seen from all aspects...

But hey, it comes down to your personal preferences...it's not for everyone...
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You blew it big time
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  #125  
Old 05.07.2011, 09:40
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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3% ? You must be joking ! It rather is between 43% and 63% !!
I was talking about leadership, not "manager of hot beverage serving during meetings"- type of "managers".

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Also, women still basically can't easily get control of their bank accounts. For example, my wife was the only reason that we could get a CS account as she holds an EU passport and I hold one from the US. Yet all correspondence was addressed to me even though she was the primary applicant and all of the money came from her work direct deposit
French banks in this area are not much better, probably due to Swiss influence - I just discovered that even though our bank knows very well, where most the money is coming from, I only have internet bank access to our current account, whereas my husband has access to all our joint savings accounts as well. Of course the little wifey only needs money for grocery shopping and does not need to worry her pretty little head about those other complicated money matters
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  #126  
Old 05.07.2011, 22:11
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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I was talking about leadership, not "manager of hot beverage serving during meetings"- type of "managers".



French banks in this area are not much better, probably due to Swiss influence - I just discovered that even though our bank knows very well, where most the money is coming from, I only have internet bank access to our current account, whereas my husband has access to all our joint savings accounts as well. Of course the little wifey only needs money for grocery shopping and does not need to worry her pretty little head about those other complicated money matters
A) I was NOT talking about "managers of hot beverages served during meetings " I was talking about managers doing the actual decisions, and this fairly often rather means CEOs instead of laid-back chairmen or operations-managers upfront and not off-realities chaps somewhere up in the air.
B) "French banks" ?? You mean banks in "la France provincielle" like Elsass-Lothringen and Bourgogne ? But are you aware of the fact the "la France Profonde" is a rather conservative territory ? Those French banks do NOT need "Swiss influence", really not, as many of the French banks have their basis in what I would call "deep basic France" !!!
C) French and Swiss bank-employees using regulations and laws of both their banks and their countries will
- address correspondence for a woman to the name/address of HER
- NOT give info to a man just because he sounds authoritative
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  #127  
Old 06.07.2011, 05:18
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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C) French and Swiss bank-employees using regulations and laws of both their banks and their countries will
- address correspondence for a woman to the name/address of HER
- NOT give info to a man just because he sounds authoritative
Then why did neither of these things happen? Correspondence was never addressed to my wife even though we called the bank on this issue. Neither was I given control over my wife's debit cards because I sound authoritative. I am not that authoritative. Just because I have a Y chromosome.

If these assumptions are not true then how does one explain the seeming inconsistencies between the preceding statements and what has actually happened in reality, eg. the one that I lived whilst there.
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  #128  
Old 07.10.2011, 17:26
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

Hello everyone,

I am a new person in this forum and I started work in an architectural company near Geneva in June. I am a female architect in her thirties, experienced in working in Ireland, the UK and Central Europe before. I worked with many female professionals, both architects and civil engineers and I learned a lot from them. In my career I had two female bosses, in Poland and Ireland and they were excellent professionals, particularly my Irish boss- a brilliant lady, thanks to whom I could still work even when recession started in 2008. For me it was always obvious that there were always highly skilled female professionals...until I arrived in Switzerland.
For a first time in my career, during job interviews from potential Swiss employers I heard questions as follows: "are you married?", "have you got a child?", ,"how old are you?". I am single, without children but I found their questions brazen. My current employer didin't ask me like that but in our office, with 13 architectural workforce excluding bosses, there are only 2 female architects- myself and a colleague in her late 40s. There is also a female student "stagiaire" and a newly graduated female interior designer. While most of our male colleagues, including young technicians are married and have children, we four ladies are single and childrenless! Of course, a madam HR director has a family. Are married women in Switzerland being considered as less responsible or untrustworthy in the workplace? Recently I got a new job interview and was asked about the family. In the UK or Ireland many female architects have children and are given a chance to work full-time even for a very demanding bosses. Highly demanding Zaha Hadid employs married female architects in London.
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  #129  
Old 07.10.2011, 20:09
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

Perhaps they asked because if you have children, taxes change, the company fronts child money, and there is extra legal work to sort out. Perhaps also they want to know if there will be parental things coming up, emergencies, and so on...I don't think it has anything to do with work ethic or anything like that...but I am speculating here.
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  #130  
Old 09.10.2011, 16:15
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

angelbutler, many thanks for your opinion.
Most companies, regardless of a country, perceive the employment of parents, particularly women, as a burden but some companies are prepared to cope with it during and after the recruitment process and treat single and married employees equally. While the others will cut a corner and reject a female married professional almost automatically. It depends of a company's culture but I have a feeling that in Switzerland, a woman, particularly with a family, has less chances to get a job, much less than in the UK, Ireland or in the States. Probably because women in those countries stood up for themselves decades ago and told firmly the employers that having children wouldn't hinder them from being a competent and effective employee.
I think that even a single woman in her 30s or 40s, who applies for a job in Switzerland, faces rejection longer that her male peer- married or unmarried. I experienced that before I found a job. I sent a lot of CV's and even these companies who were looking for employees, sent me an answer as follows: "despite of your excellent experience we cannot offer you a position". When I asked them to provide me a genuine reason of rejection, they have never answered.
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  #131  
Old 09.10.2011, 16:40
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Hello everyone,

I am a new person in this forum and I started work in an architectural company near Geneva in June. I am a female architect in her thirties, experienced in working in Ireland, the UK and Central Europe before. I worked with many female professionals, both architects and civil engineers and I learned a lot from them. In my career I had two female bosses, in Poland and Ireland and they were excellent professionals, particularly my Irish boss- a brilliant lady, thanks to whom I could still work even when recession started in 2008. For me it was always obvious that there were always highly skilled female professionals...until I arrived in Switzerland.
For a first time in my career, during job interviews from potential Swiss employers I heard questions as follows: "are you married?", "have you got a child?", ,"how old are you?". I am single, without children but I found their questions brazen. My current employer didin't ask me like that but in our office, with 13 architectural workforce excluding bosses, there are only 2 female architects- myself and a colleague in her late 40s. There is also a female student "stagiaire" and a newly graduated female interior designer. While most of our male colleagues, including young technicians are married and have children, we four ladies are single and childrenless! Of course, a madam HR director has a family. Are married women in Switzerland being considered as less responsible or untrustworthy in the workplace? Recently I got a new job interview and was asked about the family. In the UK or Ireland many female architects have children and are given a chance to work full-time even for a very demanding bosses. Highly demanding Zaha Hadid employs married female architects in London.
I'm pretty sure that in the UK it is illegal (certainly unwise) to ask a female job applicant whether or not she is married, or has children.
This could potentially be used in a claim of discrimination against the employer.
The law is obviously not the same here in Switzerland.
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  #132  
Old 09.10.2011, 18:00
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Perhaps they asked because if you have children, taxes change, the company fronts child money, and there is extra legal work to sort out. Perhaps also they want to know if there will be parental things coming up, emergencies, and so on...I don't think it has anything to do with work ethic or anything like that...but I am speculating here.
Your explanation to me justifies them asking after you've been offered a position, not before it.
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  #133  
Old 09.10.2011, 18:02
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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I'm pretty sure that in the UK it is illegal (certainly unwise) to ask a female job applicant whether or not she is married, or has children.
This could potentially be used in a claim of discrimination against the employer.
The law is obviously not the same here in Switzerland.
No kidding. Age is usually the first non-work related question, followed by marriage and kids.
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  #134  
Old 09.10.2011, 18:10
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

It does work differently here, true. I am a living proof, though, that in certain fields, the system will go out of its way to help you out and take you on board, especially if they do have exactly the info that other countries do not want to have prior hiring.

I think it has got to do with specialization, edu within the field, how many years of experiences, etc. and the "controversial" info on top. I can't talk about the technical jobs and careers, but edu has been an animal of its own sort in this. It might be that traditionally girls have been offered some ways of career, boys other, and when you as a new comer do not correspond with this division, the system might freeze.

For HRs not getting back to you with info why you haven't been chosen, please, search for threads here that deal with HR response in hiring process, it will be more clear (and gender immune).
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Old 09.10.2011, 18:22
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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For a first time in my career, during job interviews from potential Swiss employers I heard questions as follows: "are you married?", "have you got a child?", ,"how old are you?". I am single, without children but I found their questions brazen. My current employer didin't ask me like that but in our office, with 13 architectural workforce excluding bosses, there are only 2 female architects- myself and a colleague in her late 40s. There is also a female student "stagiaire" and a newly graduated female interior designer. While most of our male colleagues, including young technicians are married and have children, we four ladies are single and childrenless! Of course, a madam HR director has a family. Are married women in Switzerland being considered as less responsible or untrustworthy in the workplace?
This is true Argent.
Switzerland remains, in many ways, a very classic society.
Many women still stop working when they have children and it's almost expected (though not blatantly said, except perhaps by a mother in law )
There really isn't much infrastructure to help working mothers in terms of childcare either.

So from an employers point of view, some of them might feel (and they are incorrect) that any investment in a young woman will be lost because she'll stop to have a child and/or take an extended maternity leave and/or not return.

It's not easy, but in my opinion, it's reality.
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  #136  
Old 09.10.2011, 21:17
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Then why did neither of these things happen? Correspondence was never addressed to my wife even though we called the bank on this issue. Neither was I given control over my wife's debit cards because I sound authoritative. I am not that authoritative. Just because I have a Y chromosome.

If these assumptions are not true then how does one explain the seeming inconsistencies between the preceding statements and what has actually happened in reality, eg. the one that I lived whilst there.
A) why did it not happen ?
Because the manager in charge in that bank most presumable gave instructions always to use the name of the husband
--- and because very often, only the name of the husband is mentioned on the entrances and postboxes of houses
B) That husbands have access to the debit cards of their wifes not only still is fairly common, it until the 1950ies even was law in Switzerland, and much of the procedures of the banks is based on guidelines of well before 1960
C) I still remember a Miss C..... being infuriarated when she had heard our boss telling a colleague on the phone "...... look, to me, women in office are just aides ....." . Miss C. gave notice not long after that which most of us found regrettable but understandable. This is 40 years ago, but the attitudes need a century to change really

I a while ago spoke with a woman who worked as a truck driver in a trucking company and was angry that the men there earned more. I questioned her and found out that she had been employed as a "courier driver" and thought this was good, not realising that a "courier driver" is just a van-driver, one category BELOW a real truck driver. And this was after the turn of the century. Which means that while decisions on progress go through fairly swiftly, them becoming effect in daily life takes a bit longer. I in past decades witnessed progress pushed forward by my grandfathers to become reality, but when progress initiated by the generation of my parents and mine become actual reality in daily life I will either be very old or long gone

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  #137  
Old 09.10.2011, 21:56
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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Well, my company (30 people) has NO managers, male or female! (I HATE managers, regardless of gender).
It's not directly relevant - but how does that work‽ Sounds like a great system, but who sets salaries, etc?

On topic - think there's any value in the view that the Swiss are similarly reactive etc. to people in e.g. rural UK but less prone to hiding those views where they fear trouble for venting them?
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  #138  
Old 10.10.2011, 12:46
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Re: Women's suffrage in Switzerland

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There really isn't much infrastructure to help working mothers in terms of childcare either.

So from an employers point of view, some of them might feel (and they are incorrect) that any investment in a young woman will be lost because she'll stop to have a child and/or take an extended maternity leave and/or not return.

It's not easy, but in my opinion, it's reality.
Very correct. I would also add, that if they do continue working, they will do so at 80% or less to try to accomodate the crazy school schedule, but generally this alone drives them out of the workforce permantly. The defacto part-time status results in lower pay, slower career path, and often other inequalities (e.g. bonus, promotion, advancement, etc.)
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