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Old 01.02.2011, 14:00
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Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

One of the comments to a guardian article (discussed in another thread) says
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While being convincingly democratic, Switzerland lacks proper power controls. Without a constitutional court and without legislative control of the executive, these things are likely to happen.
Switzerland is now the same law and order obsessed state that Haider tried to establish in Austria.
Also, one should keep in mind that Switzerland is the most socially conservative place in Europe. Sort of Europe's equivalent to Texas. You rarely here anything about it because there are roughly two different publishing houses and one state-controlled TV and radio service. And all of them are completely beyond belief patriotic.
Let's not discuss here the WEF or the police actions, but what are your thoughts about the interesting points raised in the comment about Switzerland. Do they agree/think they have any truth?
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Old 01.02.2011, 14:05
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

It is rare that tune in or read the mainstream media here. OTOH I read Weltwoche and other such publications, where issues are discussed in depth.
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Old 01.02.2011, 14:21
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

"You rarely here anything about it because there are roughly two different publishing houses and one state-controlled TV and radio service. And all of them are completely beyond belief patriotic."

Hmmm...the conservatives and patriots in Switzerland would tell you that exactly these two publishing houses as well as TV and Radio are run by leftwingers.
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Old 01.02.2011, 14:43
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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and without legislative control of the executive
The parliament is the legislative control of the executive.

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Without a constitutional court
Swiss federal court

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Switzerland is now the same law and order obsessed state that Haider tried to establish in Austria.
Reductio ad Hitlerum...
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Old 02.02.2011, 09:01
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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One of the comments to a guardian article (discussed in another thread) says


Let's not discuss here the WEF or the police actions, but what are your thoughts about the interesting points raised in the comment about Switzerland. Do they agree/think they have any truth?
Was always of the opinion that the media here is not very self critical and highlights only positives.
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Old 02.02.2011, 11:25
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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It is rare that tune in or read the mainstream media here. OTOH I read Weltwoche and other such publications, where issues are discussed in depth.
Was that in reference to Weltwoche being more or less in the SVP's pocket, thus supporting the belief only conservative ideals make it into the press? Or is it that you read Weltwoche because newspapers don't represent the populist notions of the SVP, like when the Basler Zeitung revolted at Blocher hired as a consultant?

Or do you just like in-depth magazines?
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Old 02.02.2011, 12:32
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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Was always of the opinion that the media here is not very self critical and highlights only positives.
My feeling too. If something negative happens in say Germany it's news. If it's happens here. Shhh...
But is this the fault of the newspapers or their customers? If a paper started publishing the negatives I suspect they would turn away a significant part of their readership.
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Old 02.02.2011, 12:36
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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My feeling too. If something negative happens in say Germany it's news. If it's happens here. Shhh...
But is this the fault of the newspapers or their customers? If a paper started publishing the negatives I suspect they would turn away a significant part of their readership.
Could you give us a few examples?
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Old 02.02.2011, 12:56
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

An example: I lived in the Seeland area for 5 years with 2 young children. We knew there were two prisons nearby, but trusted they would be kept under control in a Swiss orderly manner. What we didn't know was that during this time the police were searching frantically for a child molester. We would have been far more cautious if we knew that! Why hadn't the local press made a story about how well the police were working?

Myself and many other long term foreigners here are critical that many things are not properly completed here until an accident happens, and then it is quietly made safe again. If the press were a bit stronger, we worried citizens might report our fears and the newspapers would have a story.

An example is the "new" bear enclosure on the banks of the river Aare. A small girl was shoved and fell into the river, she was carried along about 20 meters before being rescued. A mentally challenged man dropped his plastic bag and climbed into the enclosure. He was mauled by the bear. Recently they have erected a barrier to stop people being accidentally pushed into the river, and improved the fence to stop idiots climbing in. This project was designed by an architect and approved by the city of Bern, so why does it take many, many months before there is an accident, why hadn't anybody seen the dangers?
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Old 02.02.2011, 13:16
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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An example: I lived in the Seeland area for 5 years with 2 young children. We knew there were two prisons nearby, but trusted they would be kept under control in a Swiss orderly manner. What we didn't know was that during this time the police were searching frantically for a child molester. We would have been far more cautious if we knew that! Why hadn't the local press made a story about how well the police were working?

Myself and many other long term foreigners here are critical that many things are not properly completed here until an accident happens, and then it is quietly made safe again. If the press were a bit stronger, we worried citizens might report our fears and the newspapers would have a story.

An example is the "new" bear enclosure on the banks of the river Aare. A small girl was shoved and fell into the river, she was carried along about 20 meters before being rescued. A mentally challenged man dropped his plastic bag and climbed into the enclosure. He was mauled by the bear. Recently they have erected a barrier to stop people being accidentally pushed into the river, and improved the fence to stop idiots climbing in. This project was designed by an architect and approved by the city of Bern, so why does it take many, many months before there is an accident, why hadn't anybody seen the dangers?
I don't want to upset people nor do I intend to troll with this post..but Switzeland is afterall what I always say it is...a backwards country, comfortably hiding behind the banking industry. There are so many examples of lax rules and lacking regulations..and as you said, something about it only gets done after some people get hurt or die.
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Old 02.02.2011, 13:39
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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An example: I lived in the Seeland area for 5 years with 2 young children. We knew there were two prisons nearby, but trusted they would be kept under control in a Swiss orderly manner. What we didn't know was that during this time the police were searching frantically for a child molester. We would have been far more cautious if we knew that! Why hadn't the local press made a story about how well the police were working?

Myself and many other long term foreigners here are critical that many things are not properly completed here until an accident happens, and then it is quietly made safe again. If the press were a bit stronger, we worried citizens might report our fears and the newspapers would have a story.

An example is the "new" bear enclosure on the banks of the river Aare. A small girl was shoved and fell into the river, she was carried along about 20 meters before being rescued. A mentally challenged man dropped his plastic bag and climbed into the enclosure. He was mauled by the bear. Recently they have erected a barrier to stop people being accidentally pushed into the river, and improved the fence to stop idiots climbing in. This project was designed by an architect and approved by the city of Bern, so why does it take many, many months before there is an accident, why hadn't anybody seen the dangers?
Yes, thanks. There is a lack of communication between officials like Police and the press. Maybe they didn't inform at all. What I also find is that our so called journalists are indeed lazy. It's easier to report from the annual Trachtenverein-Meeting than research storys.

The other thing is that we have kind of overregulation regarding buildings (also to open a private business) but the controls are bad. I mean, if there is a building site you have the officials coming and point out unnecessary details. On the other side if you have a prestige object like the Bärengraben they let pass everything.

On the other side I find the Anglo-Saxons sometimes are overcautious. That said I guess we should learn from each other.
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Old 02.02.2011, 13:45
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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There are so many examples of lax rules and lacking regulations...
Which is as I prefer it!

Tom
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Old 02.02.2011, 14:10
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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Which is as I prefer it!

Tom

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Old 02.02.2011, 14:17
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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The other thing is that we have kind of overregulation regarding buildings (also to open a private business) but the controls are bad. I mean, if there is a building site you have the officials coming and point out unnecessary details. On the other side if you have a prestige object like the Bärengraben they let pass everything.
..
It's not only buildings that are not quality controlled, it is a major complain in many fields. I would definitely put more quality control into customer service, education, healthcare. Same way you mentioned media being lazy (I can't believe the stories that get reported and how low the journalism job is in the local paper we have here, our student high school fanzine was better, and we weren't paid thousands of franks a month to do it, either), there is too little expected from people here. Slow pace, does not always insure quality service and attention to detail, slow pace and the lack of any kind of follow up is sometimes just unprofessionalism and diletantism.

I think perfectionistic cultures don't report of mistakes they make. That's why we don't read it in the medias so often. Not because they would think they are the best, but simply because the culture does not authorize itself to make mistakes. Too bad, since one learns a lot from mistakes, people can also live with the idea of how nice this place is, with it's minor flaws. But to feed the overly patriotic "CH is the best of best" to people is just treating them like sheep.
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Old 02.02.2011, 14:25
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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But to feed the overly patriotic "CH is the best of best" to people is just treating them like sheep.
Very true, in the 80's when I criticised Switzerland the standard answer was "You can go to Moscow if you don't like it here", nowadays they replaced Moscow with the desert. Not even Killerarguments, just nothing, shut up if you don't like it. Always hated that and always will as there is no chance to have a real discussion.
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Old 02.02.2011, 14:32
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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Very true, in the 80's when I criticised Switzerland the standard answer was "You can go to Moscow if you don't like it here", nowadays they replaced Moscow with the desert. Not even Killerarguments, just nothing, shut up if you don't like it. Always hated that and always will as there is no chance to have a real discussion.
I find this mentality is still very present today, mainly with the older, and my, generation. My response has always been, "Well just how will Switzerland ever be perfect if you won't change?" This country will never become civilised unless it sells soft brown sugar and Hellmann's mayonaise!
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Old 02.02.2011, 14:39
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

I found it funny how in todays 20min they said Switzerland is the most innovative country in all of Europe. But they failed to add how they achieved this status. (Auslanders) No they wouldnt add that, because only Swiss people work for companies like goggle. Auslanders only clean the toilets.
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Old 02.02.2011, 14:43
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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Very true, in the 80's when I criticised Switzerland the standard answer was "You can go to Moscow if you don't like it here", nowadays they replaced Moscow with the desert. Not even Killerarguments, just nothing, shut up if you don't like it. Always hated that and always will as there is no chance to have a real discussion.
Well, to be honest, I think there is a will to improve, for sure. I think there even are discussions, now, things are improving, as fast as they can in this reform-resistant mentality. I think, the trouble is that since CH is so expensive, administration and bureaucracy so supported, every single tiny change means a load of cash. So, the mindset is the same. People are afraid if would cost. It's cheaper to feed people that all is magnifique eventhough it will be them who pay for flaws. Sometimes, change is just a question of changing attitude, to become more professional...

I took seminars over the summer at uni organized for foreign students, one was "cliches of CH and self presentation in medias", it was fun. The prof didn't realize that her presentation of the cliches, ie "look at these cute little cliches of our beautiful, best of best country", was one giant cliche itself. At the end, it was interesting to hear that CH needs to feel united, have some kind of identity to cling to, since the cultures are so different and often in opposition, culturally. As a cohesive factor. So, I think, aside of cash that comes from spreading the positive self image, there also is a practical explanation. It does feel like some kind of religion, at times...

My local friends don't fall for it, though. Those who travelled, can think for themselves, etc. It's embarrassing. It's a shame that people are exposed to this, though. But it has been always profitable for the economy to feed feelings of superiority, it happens everywhere, to certain degree.
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Old 02.02.2011, 15:45
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

Many of you have to realize that the culture in Switzerland is different than where you come from. Things that may be a big deal from your part of the world isn't in Switzerland. People like to make mountains out of mole hills. They are over emotional, attention starved and always looking for whats wrong because they have boring lifes. There are foreigners or immigrants who integrate much better than many from so called first-world industrialized nations. By the way many of you are complaining if any of you managed Switzerland it would go under in a matter of a couple of years.

Obsessive worry, negativity and fear is what brings the world down too, which leads to negative actions. Many of you stay in Switzerland because of the good things you can take advantage of. "Its too good to be true" so now you need something to scare yourselfs. The Swiss aren't over emotional, over-reacting people like for instance the Americans. Every little thing has to be reported and made a big deal of. Most of you are preparing for things that will never happen. Relax and enjoy your life.
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Old 02.02.2011, 15:48
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Re: Switzerland: lacking controls? Media too patriotic?

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People like to make mountains out of mole hills..
This one I could, potentially, agree with...
Since people make mountains out of mole hills here too, unbelievably so, just about different things. Have you seen that grandad vacuuming his pavement? What's this dirt fobia all about? Some thigns are over controlled, some things lack control, completely.
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