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Old 09.02.2011, 17:10
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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I think you are partly right with the chemical castration. It might remove the possibilty of penetration with a penis, but many perverts get their pleasures by rape using utensils. Or am I wrong?
Many damaged individuals, change MOs and tactics when they experience impotence. There is a possibility of turning a sex criminal into something that could actually be worse if the underlying problem cannot be corrected. And it has been and still is my opinion that the underlying problem of peadophiles is not correctable after the fact. The defect is permanent.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:11
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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One could argue that removing the desire or urge to do these things is dealing with the root cause.
Can of worms. Time to open.

Some would argue that these people are born/hard wired to abuse. They have very little control over the desires. If they are born like that, how can they be 'guilty'. What next, Homosexuals, dwarves ?

Would castrating homosexuals be allowed ? I am not comparing the two at all. Neither am I homophobic, but society did look upon all non heterosexuals once upon a time as sinners. How do we look upon the abusers ? As victims of their own chemical make up and brain function ? Do we help them , accept them or cut them surgically, and/or force drugs into their bodies ?

I guess, in our own barbaric sense of justice , we look towards retribution and punishment. That may make people feel better but it solves nothing. Perhaps one day , there will be a test at birth for these kind of behavioural issues, which may lead hopefully to a non destructive solution.

In the mean time, torture, ignorance and punishment does not help the victim or the offender, so we must logically admit defeat and work on other solutions.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:12
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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The idea of castration is not to remove the genitalia to "remove the offending object" as it were, but to remove the desire or need to perform such actions. I thought everyone was aware of this?
Some part of the castration can be to remove the ability of having an erection.

The problem is even if you remove the desire itself, it doesn't remote the desire to control or abuse someone. Rapist don't commit a rape just for the sexual act of it but for showing power and putting someone in a victim and weak position.

Someone could still do rapes even without the sexual desire.

That won't protect potential victims.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:14
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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Can of worms. Time to open.

Some would argue that these people are born/hard wired to abuse. They have very little control over the desires. If they are born like that, how can they be 'guilty'. What next, Homosexuals, dwarves ?

Would castrating homosexuals be allowed ? I am not comparing the two at all. Neither am I homophobic, but society did look upon all non heterosexuals once upon a time as sinners. How do we look upon the abusers ? As victims of their own chemical make up and brain function ? Do we help them , accept them or cut them surgically, and/or force drugs into their bodies ?

I guess, in our own barbaric sense of justice , we look towards retribution and punishment. That may make people feel better but it solves nothing. Perhaps one day , their will be a test at birth for these kind of behavioural issues, which may lead hopefully to a non destructive solution.

In the mean time, torture, ignorance and punishment does not help the victim or the offender, so we must logically admit defeat and work on other solutions.
Ahh, this is easy. The answer to your question is no. Because, although homosexuals may offend and annoy and discomfit some segment of the population, they are not guilty of psychological and physical assault and abuse and do not traumatise innocent people and ruin lives.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:15
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According to an article in the Tages Anzeiger, there are institutions where female patients are required to be on the pill, from child bearing age (also teens) to prevent pregnancy which technically could only occur by rape as sexual contact between residents is prohibited and prevented (and hopefully with staff too.)

It appears the risk of getting pregnant is deemed important to mitigate, systematically and without choice of patients or their parents, whereas the risk of assault (by fellow residents) is accepted or at least acknowledged, therwise there's no need for systematic, compulsory, contraception.

These were the concerns of a woman who is an expert on care for disabled and has been campaigning for reform.

And ..she points out ... if you are a pedophile it's handy if you're victim, or all of your victims, can't get pregnant. And you know it, for sure. Because thats the system. Very convenient.

So castration of the one that got caught already? Or reform in the system that didn't catch him for five years?

Lisa
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  #46  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:18
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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Ahh, this is easy. The answer to your question is no. Because, although homosexuals may offend and annoy and discomfit some segment of the population, they are not guilty of psychological and physical assault and abuse and do not traumatise innocent people and ruin lives.
I wasn't comparing the acts that certain groups involve themselves in. Merely societies view and treatment of those not fully fitting into the belief of what is normal and acceptable and what is not. We/Society are moving towards tolerance and understanding, perhaps one day this will include all the people we now call 'evil'.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:18
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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One could and I would take the opportunity to take you up on that argument.
I don't believe that it is due to the fact that normal sexual behaviour is not seen as a crime around the world but rather something special that brings people closer together (literally ). In these cases however the sexual behaviour is deviant and causes pain rather than pleasure for the other partner. There is a reason that the sexual behaviour is deviant. That is the cause of the issue, not the sexual desire itself.

Your counter?
But that suggests a hard wiring of sorts to cause people to behave this way - nature over nurture, as it were.

That being the case, you cannot change the behaviour - or rather we don't have the capability as yet. This brings us back to the point that you need to train these people to change - which Stephanie has suggested doesn't work - or lock them up, or chemically castrate them, or any combination of these.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:23
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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But that suggests a hard wiring of sorts to cause people to behave this way - nature over nurture, as it were.

That being the case, you cannot change the behaviour - or rather we don't have the capability as yet. This brings us back to the point that you need to train these people to change - which Stephanie has suggested doesn't work - or lock them up, or chemically castrate them, or any combination of these.
We are on the same level here, in that we simply do not have a solution. I am perhaps suggesting we try a different approach. The corrective actions listed in this topic aren't working.

So, my question is, where do we go, what direction do we take ? Current thinking is failing us, give me some room for thought, hit me with some new ideas and proposals.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:29
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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Then what is the root cause of sexual behaviour? The hormones themselves, perhaps?
Well, sexual drives I think have proved themselves more complicated than just hormonal. They are instictual, emotional, hormonal, taught. They are both nature and nurture....so sorry, no easy answer here.

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But that suggests a hard wiring of sorts to cause people to behave this way - nature over nurture, as it were.
No, I don't believe that. As above it is much more complicated than that.

I am trying to make a point that sexual drives are so linked with all our behaviour that they cannot just be removed. These violent sexual crimes are not just a sexual problem, they are a larger issue that needs to be dealt with, often not just from the abuser's point of view but also, victim, society around and all sorts of issues. I personally feel that all of these "evil" (as defined in classical hedonistic egoism) are caused by some mal-adjustment in the person commiting them and that is the problem that needs to be solved, not closing the outlet valve that the problem may have expressed itself through.

Once again though, in reality this always turns out to be harder than talking about it in this sort of forum.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:30
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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We are on the same level here...
I know, I only read your post after reading Colin's
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:31
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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hit me with some new ideas and proposals.
1. Figure out what caused that person to become that monster.
2. Try and solve that problem for that individual while protecting the community around them.
3. Implement education and proactive measures to ensure that the problem is deminished in our society.

It is a long term strategy, expensive and requires an enourmous amount of commitment.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:34
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

Instead of wanting to take revenge or punish I would like to point out that innocent children have to be protected from a potential rapist - maybe it means to lock him up forever, since - as it has been pointed out sveral times - the problem cannot be solved by therapy. Somebody who has done it once is likely to do it again, so his prospective victims need to be taken care of, not the weirdo.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:34
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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I wasn't comparing the acts that certain groups involve themselves in. Merely societies view and treatment of those not fully fitting into the belief of what is normal and acceptable and what is not. We/Society are moving towards tolerance and understanding, perhaps one day this will include all the people we now call 'evil'.
Maybe you are correct. But, my point is that we can NOT ever come to the conclusion, that since we can't control their behaviour then we should just make it socially acceptable, unlike homosexuality. The analogy is contorted because one group's behaviour is incredibly destructive and the other group's behaviour is not only natural (10%) but is not damaging. Anthropologically speaking it is actually quite useful over time to the society in which it occurs.

The other problem is that until we can figure out what to do to "fix" these individuals, if it is even possible, we can never release them into society at large. The number of repeat offenders in this particular group is staggering.

Serial pathological behaviour does not just happen by accident. Until we can know the offender is going to behave correctly in future, we cannot release them, ever. The problem is way more complicated than simple murder, robbery, etc.

I look forward to a time when we will have the answers to these difficult questions, but I don't expect in my lifetime, if ever.
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  #54  
Old 09.02.2011, 17:42
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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No, I don't believe that. As above it is much more complicated than that.

I am trying to make a point that sexual drives are so linked with all our behaviour that they cannot just be removed. These violent sexual crimes are not just a sexual problem, they are a larger issue that needs to be dealt with, often not just from the abuser's point of view but also, victim, society around and all sorts of issues. I personally feel that all of these "evil" (as defined in classical hedonistic egoism) are caused by some mal-adjustment in the person commiting them and that is the problem that needs to be solved, not closing the outlet valve that the problem may have expressed itself through.

Once again though, in reality this always turns out to be harder than talking about it in this sort of forum.
I agree it is complex. But to some extent, I think you are talking about the larger problem as well, rather than what to do about the abuser, basically once caught.

Focusing on this aspect, if you look at other mental diseases - and for the sake of discussion, let's assume that such behaviour is mentally linked - like Bipolar disease (BD), there's increasing evidence that there is a hard-wiring issue (based on epigenetics), where genetically linked traits are passed from one generation to the next (rather than "bread" over several generations). This doesn't mean that the genes themselves change, but rather that the gene expression changes.

Such changes in gene expression drive the way our body regulates itself - including how we behave and react to stimuli.

How can you change such "hard-wiring" once in place is still not known. But in the case of BD you have to treat with a range of therapies, but mainly drug cocktails. Counselling-based therapies have only been shown to have a limited success, and often fail as the patient's urges over-ride their rational thought processes.

We can't really treat the cause of many mental diseases now, so what makes you think we'll manage it in the case of sexual deviancy?

In this situation the equivalent of the drug cocktail approach for BD would be chemical castration. As Paddy said, this isn't about erectile function. Chemical castration suppresses the sexual urges, by altering the expression of hormones that control your behaviour. Until we find a "cure" no amount of talking about it on the couch is going to make much difference.
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Old 09.02.2011, 17:59
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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I agree it is complex. But to some extent, I think you are talking about the larger problem as well, rather than what to do about the abuser, basically once caught.
Yes, completely, that is what I am saying.
I undertand that dealing with the abuser is critical and protecting the community is vital but I am not sure that we currently have better solutions than the ones that we currently use. I really think we need to put extra energy into solving the bigger problem, not less energy into solving the abuser one.


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We can't really treat the cause of many mental diseases now, so what makes you think we'll manage it in the
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case of sexual deviancy?
I know, but that does not mean that we should not be making significant effort to achieve it.

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In this situation the equivalent of the drug cocktail approach for BD would be chemical castration.

And if it works at the moment and is the best current solution that we have right now, then good, let's go with it, but let's not sell it as a perfect solution as it is just dealing with an issue caused by the problem, not the root cause.
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Old 09.02.2011, 20:50
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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1. The reluctance to change the law on statute of limitations because it would be a major legal headache

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics...ml?cid=7072842

There's no statue of limitation on child abuse in Switzerland. It's part of the constitution as of 2008 and any personal feelings of politicians prior to this are irrelevant.

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4. Reluctance to extradite Polanski to the US to stand trial, but Polanski wasn't the only case
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...d-1950287.html
So Switzerland is soft on pedophiles not the US which let Polanski leave the country in the first place and couldn't be bothered to deliver the legal documents necessary to get him back. Interesting.
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Old 09.02.2011, 22:28
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

I'm sorry I can't cite the research right now (will have to look it up) but from what I remember when studying criminal pathology, in the cases of peadaphillia where the perpetrator is primarily attracted to young boys, the rate of relapse, or re-offending after intensive therapy is extremely high indeed.

Research showed that therapy was more successful in terms of less re-offending when the perpetrator was primarily attracted to young girls.

I wrote a thesis on how victims of child sex abuse are treated within the UK criminal justice system. We're going way back to the very early 90's here - but a large part of my research for that thesis involved reading about the offenders background. In many cases the offender was either abused themselves as a child or came from severely dysfunctional families - sometimes with familial sexual relations between generations and/or other forms of abuse. This in combination with other psychological factors gave rise to "a propensity to abuse".

There have been trials in parts of the states where pedophiles with attraction to children which has failed to be altered or treated by conventional therapy have actually consented to chemical castration. The results as I remember were that the urges were greatly decreased - and in combination with other forms of therapy treatment was more effective.

Treatment works more effectively once pedophiles admit to the fact they have a problem. What is often problematic is that many pedophiles actually normalize their behaviour - or have a deep process of denial. You find in case studies some pedophiles even arguing that child have 'a right to express sexuality' and other such views. So it's very complex.
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Old 09.02.2011, 22:44
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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I wrote a thesis on how victims of child sex abuse are treated within the UK criminal justice system.
Kudos, tough topic, can't say I would have had the strength.

Yes, it is a complex problem, and that is why we should keep on making sure that we do everything in our power to make sure that it is lessened over time.
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Old 10.02.2011, 01:35
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Re: Swiss care worker 'sexually abused 114 people'

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There's no statue of limitation on child abuse in Switzerland. It's part of the constitution as of 2008 and any personal feelings of politicians prior to this are irrelevant.
So tough luck for all of those before 2008? I think that this protected some influential people, such as priests and the Catholic faith. wasn't there the case of some priest that 'got off' because of this?

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So Switzerland is soft on pedophiles not the US which let Polanski leave the country in the first place and couldn't be bothered to deliver the legal documents necessary to get him back. Interesting.
Polanski fled before he could be arrested!

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In 1977, after a photo shoot in Los Angeles, Polanski was arrested for the sexual abuse of a 13-year-old girl and pleaded guilty to the charge of unlawful sex with a minor.[7][8] To avoid sentencing, Polanski fled to his home in London, and then moved on to France the following day. In September 2009, Polanski was arrested by Swiss police at the request of U.S. authorities who asked for his extradition.[9][10][11] However, in July 2010, the Swiss rejected that request and instead released him from custody and declared him a "free man."[12]
In any case the world moves on but in this respect Switzerland is a little slow to come into line with other 'developed' countries.

With respect to paedophilia, I used to be sympathetic believing that the behaviour must be due to the fact that the paedophiles were themselves abused and so could not break the cycle. I also believed that they somehow had a brain chemistry that led them to this behaviour.
There is some truth to this, however the inescapable fact is that for many paedophiles or those who sexually abuse it is all about power. Not all people who are sexually abused go on to abuse others. There is a pattern, a process of 'grooming', this 'grooming' is part of the process that they enjoy. They can also enjoy the fact that it is forbidden or considered illicit. It is purely a selfish indulgence, Many of them are fully aware of what they are doing and the consequences for themselves should they get caught, which is why they go to such lengths to hide it. Some even consider it their right, they are dangerous people, who prey on the weak.

Thank goodness Leuthard is trying to get to grips with this, clearly the central registry needs to be extended to those in care.

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Leuthard said a list of teachers who have abused children already exists and that one should now be developed for priests to prevent them from having any more contact with children. She added that the church must accept its share of responsibility, and that “everyone is subject to the Swiss Penal Code, without exception.”
The head of the Swiss Bishops Conference had said last week that he is opposed to such a central registry.
http://worldradio.ch/wrs/news/wrsnew...ry.shtml?18481
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Old 10.02.2011, 01:49
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Can of worms. Time to open.

Some would argue that these people are born/hard wired to abuse. They have very little control over the desires. If they are born like that, how can they be 'guilty'. What next, Homosexuals, dwarves ?

Would castrating homosexuals be allowed ? I am not comparing the two at all. Neither am I homophobic, but society did look upon all non heterosexuals once upon a time as sinners. How do we look upon the abusers ? As victims of their own chemical make up and brain function ? Do we help them , accept them or cut them surgically, and/or force drugs into their bodies ?

I guess, in our own barbaric sense of justice , we look towards retribution and punishment. That may make people feel better but it solves nothing. Perhaps one day , there will be a test at birth for these kind of behavioural issues, which may lead hopefully to a non destructive solution.

In the mean time, torture, ignorance and punishment does not help the victim or the offender, so we must logically admit defeat and work on other solutions.
I take offence to lumping sexual deviants in with homosexuals. There are gay guys who like young men, but they don't abuse, just like there are straight guys who like young women but don't abuse.
Paedophilia is not akin to dwarfism ( where did that come from?) or homosexuality
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