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Old 20.03.2011, 19:33
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4 skiers die in avalanche accidents ( 3 in GR & 1 in BE )

Two avalanches in the Swiss Alps killed four skiers at the weekend, both accidents happening outside marked and secure slopes.
Police in the eastern canton of Graubünden reported that three Germans died after being swept down 100 metres in the Flüela pass region at a height of around 2,700 metres.

A fourth German who was dragged down with them managed to free himself from the snow after several hours and raised the alarm on his mobile phone.

The 47-year-old skier was later taken to hospital in Davos suffering from frostbite and was attended by a care team.

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Link:
As a centre of expertise, the SLF is responsible for warning the authorities and issuing the population with generally applicable recommendations on what to do in the event of an avalanche risk. One of best known services provided by the Institute is its avalanche bulletin.
Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research - bulletins in DE, limited in EN
http://www.slf.ch/index_DE

Hazard Map:
http://www.slf.ch/lawineninfo/lawine...karte/index_DE
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Old 20.03.2011, 20:01
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

I dislike and detest this term of "ouside secured ....." as quite many areas in the alps are like this. BUT, when leaving the organised aereas you ought to be careful, have a close watch about what is going up above you, beneath you and right around you. In my last skiing vacation in Flims, a schoolfriend and me were in the skiing school each morning but on our own in the afternoon. We talked things through with our skiing instructor at noon, and he told us about details, about danger-classes, about what to look for, about precautions, and all this. He carefully instructed and taught us about a whole lot of things. And so, we knew how to deal with such things. Those avalanches do NOT result out of nothing, and can be seen developing for quarter-hours or more. At worst you may "create" such an avalanche when being "up" still and then when being below get caught by "your" product
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Old 20.03.2011, 20:09
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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I dislike and detest this term of "ouside secured ....." as quite many areas in the alps are like this. BUT, when leaving the organised aereas you ought to be careful, have a close watch about what is going up above you, beneath you and right around you. In my last skiing vacation in Flims, a schoolfriend and me were in the skiing school each morning but on our own in the afternoon. We talked things through with our skiing instructor at noon, and he told us about details, about danger-classes, about what to look for, about precautions, and all this. He carefully instructed and taught us about a whole lot of things. And so, we knew how to deal with such things. Those avalanches do NOT result out of nothing, and can be seen developing for quarter-hours or more. At worst you may "create" such an avalanche when being "up" still and then when being below get caught by "your" product
How about driving 'above the legal speed limit' or 'exceeding the allowable blood-alcohol limit'?

Why would 'outside secured ...' be so bad? It simply means 'danger out here, but less so over there'.

Basically a great way of thinning out the gene pool - tempting fate. Fate often wins.
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Old 20.03.2011, 21:09
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

The DE version provides a detailed report:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/ger/news/new...l?cid=29783824

Crude Translation into EN
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Old 20.03.2011, 21:13
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

Unfortunate accident .

I am curious as to whether they were equipped and/ or with a guide.

All too often at this time of the year people underestimate the Spring conditions. It is one of the most dangerous times as there are so many different layers of snow.
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Old 20.03.2011, 21:28
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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Unfortunate accident .

I am curious as to whether they were equipped and/ or with a guide.

All too often at this time of the year people underestimate the Spring conditions. It is one of the most dangerous times as there are so many different layers of snow.
The group in Davos were equipped. I don't think they were with a guide.

From the information I've seen so far it looks like the whole group was buried and one of them managed to free himself and raise the alarm.

The location where they were in general is less than 30deg, It looks like it was a south facing slope, but it was overcast yesterday so possibly not a wet snow avalanche. Having looked at the map I'm of the opinion that they didn't release the avalanche themselves but were unlucky. In general the steeper ground is above 2700m where they were when the avalanche released. There is one place where it is a bit steeper at around 2700m, but I'd not have chosen that route yesterday. I could be wrong though, It'll be a bit clearer tomorrow when the SLF release the circumstances of both accidents.

I don't have a map of the area in Grindlewald, and there doesn't seem to be much useful information about that incident yet.

Surprised you picked up on this now, but didn't report any of the accidents earlier in the season. There was a 30% increase in Rega call outs and emergency procedures in January and February when there was no fresh snow so very few people were going off piste, so all of these incidents were on-piste. This was also when resorts were reporting a 10-15% increase in turnover compared to previous years.

BTW, The thread title is wrong. Four died this weekend in Avalanches only three were in GR, the other was in BE.
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Old 20.03.2011, 21:36
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

A friend of a friend was just killed in an avalanche in the French Alps this weekend. It seems to be a bad time for it right now up in the mountains.
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Old 20.03.2011, 21:46
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

I'm across the Maennlichen mountain ridge from Grindlewald, in Wengen. I'll give my bit of insight as to what could have happened.

Things were getting really brown and melted recently, but we did get a lot of snow unexpectedly 5-6 days ago. Unfortunatley right after that temperatures went right back to 40s-50s in the villages (Grindlewald is lower, so I'd imagine even worse), causing a lot of avalanches.

Off-piste here is usually very secure, meaning that almost everybody does it, and unequipped too. They're good with their warning system, but so many people will check the status before they go off, but if something is closed an hour into their skiing they won't know.

It's all very sad...
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Old 20.03.2011, 22:13
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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How about driving 'above the legal speed limit' or 'exceeding the allowable blood-alcohol limit'?

Why would 'outside secured ...' be so bad? It simply means 'danger out here, but less so over there'.

Basically a great way of thinning out the gene pool - tempting fate. Fate often wins.
> speed and alcohol may have an influence but a rather minor one in fact

> the question is not about "bad" but as you rightly say about that you have to be extra careful, as the terrain is not worked upon

> It has not much to do with "thinning out the gene pool" but rather with "outsiders" not respecting realities and some people not respecting nature
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Old 20.03.2011, 22:24
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents ( 3 in GR & 1 in BE )

We skinned up from Super St. Bernard to the Hospice on Saturday. It was snowing alot and visibility was not great. The avalanche warning was 3/5 in that part of the VS so skiing on any slopes was not very safe (we stayed on the piste/trail on the way back down). It was not the most exciting decent but at least it was safe.

What also tends to happen when there are groups of people (often without a guide) is that everyone is excited by the new powder and they do not leave enough time/space between the skiers so they are ALL caught up in the slide. Frankly, it is better to have 5 people looking for one person than the reverse.

Unfortunately, people do not give the mountains enough respect by times (especially when we have not had much snow and anything new does not necessarily stick very well).
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Old 20.03.2011, 22:28
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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Unfortunate accident .

I am curious as to whether they were equipped and/ or with a guide.

All too often at this time of the year people underestimate the Spring conditions. It is one of the most dangerous times as there are so many different layers of snow.
Absolutely. People in spring often forget that the various snow layers can be tricky.
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Old 20.03.2011, 22:36
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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A friend of a friend was just killed in an avalanche in the French Alps this weekend. It seems to be a bad time for it right now up in the mountains.
I am sorry for both. But of course, the time up from early March into late May is the time when the snow also in the Alps is melting and when people around have to be extra-careful.
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Old 21.03.2011, 03:52
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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Surprised you picked up on this now, but didn't report any of the accidents earlier in the season. .
Sorry, don't post much anymore. Too busy skiing.

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Old 21.03.2011, 07:15
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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Sorry, don't post much anymore. Too busy skiing.

:P
Wasn't talking about you, talking about the original posting.

And Wali... Spring and various snow layers? The layers are a problem in winter when you have drift snow and new snow making differently packed snow layers often with a crust and a weak layer in the middle. It's this weak layer that causes avalanches.

In spring the snow has often melted right through and the layers are gone. The danger in spring is wet snow avalanches where the snow melts so much it loses grip with itself and a large and usually very heavy slab starts to slide. I'd be pretty sure that Saturdays accident was not a spring snow avalanche. I'm not sure about Sundays.

As for telling accidents 15 minutes in advance... thats bull. You constantly assess the slope when you are out there. Most of the planning is done the night before checking slope angles on maps, weather forecasts, avalanche reports etc. You reassess your judgement on the spot but quarters of hours? With fresh or drift snow avalanche the trigger point is there or it's not. The weight of an extra skier will trigger if it's there. It's nothing to do with 15 minutes. In spring snow time of day has a lot to do with it. But it's how the snow has melted, and how warm the day is. Not 15mins!

The reference to 15mins or quarter of an hour is usually how long you have to get someone out if they are buried. After that time survival chances drop exponentially. It's why everyone going outside marked runs should carry Transciever, shovel and probe... and know how to use them.
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Old 21.03.2011, 07:36
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents ( 3 in GR & 1 in BE )

Given how many people engage in backcountry skiing, the fact that you don't hear about this sort of thing more often is an indication that most people do, in fact, take the danger quite seriously, do what they can to get proper training, etc. Oddly, people who engage in high risk activities are often better prepared for their activity than most people are for the simple act of driving. I imagine that if you normalized the accident rates of backcountry skiers to that of drivers, you'd be appalled every weekend.
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Old 25.03.2011, 02:04
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents ( 3 in GR & 1 in BE )

This might be relevant:

Quote:

Mountain deaths up

There was a significant increase in the number of deaths of climbers, trekkers and ski mountaineers in the Swiss Alps and Jura hills last year.

The Swiss Alpine Club (SAC) said on Thursday that 124 people died in 2010, which was an increase of 11 per cent on 2009.

The figure increased to 173 when taking into account paragliding and mountain biking fatalities as well as deaths due to natural causes, such as heart attacks.

The largest number of people, 83, died after a fall – more than half of them while hiking. Thirty people died in avalanches - seven more than in 2009. Most were ski mountaineers.
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sport/Mo...l?cid=29827950
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Old 25.03.2011, 02:34
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents ( 3 in GR & 1 in BE )

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Given how many people engage in backcountry skiing, the fact that you don't hear about this sort of thing more often is an indication that most people do, in fact, take the danger quite seriously, do what they can to get proper training, etc.
I've been in Switzerland for 10 years. In February I lost my third coworker to backcountry skiing/snowboarding (1 skiing / 2 snowboarding) accidents. All the preparation in the world, including avalanche rescue devices, can help. Unfortunately accidents do still happen.

Public service announcement: Not all backcountry have cell phone coverage. No cell phone coverage = no call to Rega.
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Old 25.03.2011, 02:39
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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Sorry, don't post much anymore. Too busy skiing.

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Old 25.03.2011, 02:48
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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Wasn't talking about you, talking about the original posting.

And Wali... Spring and various snow layers? The layers are a problem in winter when you have drift snow and new snow making differently packed snow layers often with a crust and a weak layer in the middle. It's this weak layer that causes avalanches.

In spring the snow has often melted right through and the layers are gone. The danger in spring is wet snow avalanches where the snow melts so much it loses grip with itself and a large and usually very heavy slab starts to slide. I'd be pretty sure that Saturdays accident was not a spring snow avalanche. I'm not sure about Sundays.

As for telling accidents 15 minutes in advance... thats bull. You constantly assess the slope when you are out there. Most of the planning is done the night before checking slope angles on maps, weather forecasts, avalanche reports etc. You reassess your judgement on the spot but quarters of hours? With fresh or drift snow avalanche the trigger point is there or it's not. The weight of an extra skier will trigger if it's there. It's nothing to do with 15 minutes. In spring snow time of day has a lot to do with it. But it's how the snow has melted, and how warm the day is. Not 15mins!

The reference to 15mins or quarter of an hour is usually how long you have to get someone out if they are buried. After that time survival chances drop exponentially. It's why everyone going outside marked runs should carry Transciever, shovel and probe... and know how to use them.
If you want to discuss REAL details I am NOT your contact person. But my personal private experience is that snow in late March and early April is tricky at best and lousy at worst
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Old 25.03.2011, 02:56
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Re: 4 skiers die in avalanche accidents in GR

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Wasn't talking about you, talking about the original posting.

And Wali... Spring and various snow layers? The layers are a problem in winter when you have drift snow and new snow making differently packed snow layers often with a crust and a weak layer in the middle. It's this weak layer that causes avalanches.

In spring the snow has often melted right through and the layers are gone. The danger in spring is wet snow avalanches where the snow melts so much it loses grip with itself and a large and usually very heavy slab starts to slide. I'd be pretty sure that Saturdays accident was not a spring snow avalanche. I'm not sure about Sundays.

As for telling accidents 15 minutes in advance... thats bull. You constantly assess the slope when you are out there. Most of the planning is done the night before checking slope angles on maps, weather forecasts, avalanche reports etc. You reassess your judgement on the spot but quarters of hours? With fresh or drift snow avalanche the trigger point is there or it's not. The weight of an extra skier will trigger if it's there. It's nothing to do with 15 minutes. In spring snow time of day has a lot to do with it. But it's how the snow has melted, and how warm the day is. Not 15mins!

The reference to 15mins or quarter of an hour is usually how long you have to get someone out if they are buried. After that time survival chances drop exponentially. It's why everyone going outside marked runs should carry Transciever, shovel and probe... and know how to use them.
A) avalanches are difficult to predict. BUT YOU, yes Sir, YOU can contribute to reduce their likeliness
B) 15 minutes in advance ? hardly ... you only can try to reduce YOUR contribution to avalanches AND you can try to avoid areas in question
C) you refer to speedy skiers. But I never was a speedy one. I needed my time, and needed an hour to cover a distance for what my older brother needed a few minutes
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