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  #21  
Old 03.04.2011, 21:55
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

I remember when bought our 300m2 of old farmers land, some people in my village was not very happy, and we really got our dose of angry looks and bitter comments. Anyway, I wonder many times why do in-breaths channel their negativism on the people moving into their village and not towards the farmers who sold the land?

The same goes for the companies, they are ones who are hiring foreign people, it's impossible for most of the people to come here and live on social welfare.

Why do foreigners have to take all the crap due that the government and the companies are acting like they do?
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Old 03.04.2011, 22:02
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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I remember when bought our 300m2 of old farmers land, some people in my village was not very happy, and we really got our dose of angry looks and bitter comments. Anyway, I wonder many times why do in-breaths channel their negativism on the people moving into their village and not towards the farmers who sold the land?

The same goes for the companies, they are ones who are hiring foreign people, it's impossible for most of the people to come here and live on social welfare.

Why do foreigners have to take all the crap due that the government and the companies are acting like they do?
Because we are easier to spot?

And the companies are swiss, so it can't be their fault!
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  #23  
Old 03.04.2011, 22:41
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

Sorry but, I'm getting very annoyed with all the SVP signs. It makes Switzerland look very third-world. Think about all the visitors that come here I see those signs, what a wonderful impression it leaves.

But here's an idea...lets all help the SVP out!! Lets all take their advertisements to tourism boards in our respective countries..paste them up...along with signs that say "welcome to Switzerland, now get out"!!! (or with a translation).

Find whatever advertisements you can, scan them and distribute them to your friends, lets show the world what Switzerland really is about!!

Lets post thier signs at tourist sites accross Switzerland in plain site of the tourists?

We can wear SVP advertisements at Zurich Flughafen as tourists comeout of Arrivals 1 and 2!! We can give out cards that say..."Welcome..now get out...you dirty, nasty, foreigner" then put the SVP logo on the back.

What say you all? Who want's to be a black sheep? Lets help the SVP get the Auslanders Raus!!!
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  #24  
Old 03.04.2011, 23:14
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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But here's an idea...lets all help the SVP out!! Lets all take their advertisements to tourism boards in our respective countries..paste them up...along with signs that say "welcome to Switzerland, now get out"!!! (or with a translation).
I don't need to do this:

SVP:



The German Neo-Nazis of the NPD are already copying the posters:



SVP:


The French FN - the openly racist French extremists:


I like the idea with the airport, but the escort services that currently rent the ad space there are probably paying better...
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  #25  
Old 03.04.2011, 23:23
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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I don't think that's what they are saying.

Some of the more immigrant friendly parties are saying immigration is a good thing and there is no problem really if the population rises as a result. The SVP are saying, not so. If you are a tree hugger and angry about some trees being cut down to widen the road, or about that pretty meadow being turned into a housing estate, then maybe you should be asking why these things are necessary. In other words, this is intended as a kick in the teeth for the Green Party who are traditionally both pro-immigration while anti lots of other things that the SVP are now claiming are connected.
I dont agree to your analysis. There are various options:

a) yours: The SVP, as so often in the past years outsmarts the opposition and wants to get them into a difficult situation. Somehow is their claim still completely rubbish as I pointed out - if there was no new nuclear power station build since 1984 is the claim "they are taking our electricity" is plain stupid, no green will have a problem to explain where the logic stops.

b) Last week were elections in two Germany provinces - the Green party has won a landslide victory. Baden-Würtenberg has been conservative since WW2 and now they will get the first ever green politician taking the German equivalent of a US Governor! There were various reasons for the win, but the Fukishima crisis has a major impact.
Today were similar elections in Zurich. The SVP probably wanted to say "we are against nuclear power as well" to catch some last minute votes by connecting the current hot topic with their trademark hate-campaigns... to stop some people who planned to switch. They did not manage as the SVP lost seats today and the green and green-liberals won...
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  #26  
Old 03.04.2011, 23:50
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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I dont agree to your analysis. There are various options:

a) yours: The SVP, as so often in the past years outsmarts the opposition and wants to get them into a difficult situation. Somehow is their claim still completely rubbish as I pointed out - if there was no new nuclear power station build since 1984 is the claim "they are taking our electricity" is plain stupid, no green will have a problem to explain where the logic stops.
Not quite, there was an increasing population prior to 1984 and this is one reason why Leibstadt was built. Had the population remained constant at its post-war level, I don't think we would have Leibstadt. Leibstadt was also built with the future in mind and so absorbed some of the growth of later years. Again, I think that even the greens must admit there is a connection if they are honest.

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b) Last week were elections in two Germany provinces - the Green party has won a landslide victory. Baden-Würtenberg has been conservative since WW2 and now they will get the first ever green politician taking the German equivalent of a US Governor! There were various reasons for the win, but the Fukishima crisis has a major impact.
Today were similar elections in Zurich. The SVP probably wanted to say "we are against nuclear power as well" to catch some last minute votes by connecting the current hot topic with their trademark hate-campaigns... to stop some people who planned to switch. They did not manage as the SVP lost seats today and the green and green-liberals won...
Again, I disagree:

Fukushima has caused a general anti-nuclear feeling and in Germany the greens are best poised to cash in on this as they are the only party that has been unambiguously anti-nuclear from the beginning. This caused a last minute shift in opinion and you could say that Fukusima gave them the election victory.

In Switzerland, without Fukushima, the SVP would have run further inroads in today's elections. Again, the Greens were able to make stronger use of the "Fukushima bonus", but failed to make gains in the style of the German Greens. The real winners in Zurich were the Green Democrats. Whereas the Greens won some fraction of a percentage point, the Green Democrats rose to doubled their vote and are now practically as strong as the Greens. Maybe this would have happened in Germany as well had there been a party like the Green Democrats, but there wasn't and so we won't know. The Green Democrats are not just a second green party. They are fundamentally different. For a start they don't trace their roots and ideology to the 1968 revolution or to setting fire to police cars on 1st May but are more on the turf of the CVP. The success of the GLP shows that many people will vote for the green bit without the left wing bit if they are offered the choice. I believe tha as Fukushima calms down and some of the anti-nuclear opinion swings back a little, the Greens will have difficulty defending the electoral gains they have made, but the GLP still has growth ahead of it.

As for the SVP, they didn't lose ground to the level that some of the headlines would have you believe. They slipped from just over 30% to just under 30% and are still the largest party. For being the first election campaign in many many years that wasn't fought on their terms and about their pet topics, that's not really a poor result.
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  #27  
Old 03.04.2011, 23:59
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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I like the idea with the airport, but the escort services that currently rent the ad space there are probably paying better...
and is creating an equally skewed impression of life in Switzerland ...
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  #28  
Old 04.04.2011, 00:28
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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I remember when bought our 300m2 of old farmers land, some people in my village was not very happy, and we really got our dose of angry looks and bitter comments. Anyway, I wonder many times why do in-breaths channel their negativism on the people moving into their village and not towards the farmers who sold the land?

The same goes for the companies, they are ones who are hiring foreign people, it's impossible for most of the people to come here and live on social welfare.

Why do foreigners have to take all the crap due that the government and the companies are acting like they do?
in-breats ???????
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  #29  
Old 04.04.2011, 00:36
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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PS. how can the biggest party in Switzerland get so big with only one topic?
Most likely because more and more people are fed up with the negative side effects of strong population growth.
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  #30  
Old 04.04.2011, 01:02
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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Again, I think that even the greens must admit there is a connection if they are honest.
No. There is no connection at all. There is a connection between population and consumption. The decision to produce the necessary electricity via nuclear power is not at all connected.

I watched a discussion on tele zurich tonight with all the party heads. (What is the talkshow with that bald guy called again?) Nuclear power was the main topic and Chrisoph Mörgeli had to explain this weird position. Actually he didn't. Everytime he spoke he talked for literally one to two sentences about electricity and then used this imaginary "connection" to switch completely to the immigration politics and blame the left for "letting everyone in". All the old stories and absolutely no substance or new insight.

Just populism, but again smart: The green and green liberals (not "green democrats", all green are democrats except of "sea shepherd" maybe...) enjoy a lot of media attention as they are the ones competent in the current hot topic. The SVP needed to get back on the front page and once again did not care if this means stretching logics a bit....

Again: I would be more than open to the discussion if it was not only populism: If the SVP would explain what Switzerland would have to do to keep its wealth while throwing out all the foreign talent that keeps the economy running here... or alternatively have a clear opinion and message who would have to expect what cuts when there is less taxes to distribute to the svp voting farmers.
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  #31  
Old 04.04.2011, 08:51
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

The main problem I see is the SVP attempting to link immigration with the building of nuclear power plants. They make no arguments of cause-and-effect.

If the economy were to grow due to other reasons, for example, changes in economic policies, introduction of technology, new relations in trading partners, etc., then the energy requirements of a country would change whether there was immigration or not. A good example is Japan which built a number of nuclear power plants from the 1960s-1980s, yet made very little changes in their immigration policy during that time.

So then I would ask if the building of power plants in Switzerland were a result of the changes of economic policies. The building of power plants AND a rise in immigration would only be the effects of a growing economy.

Stating that immigration causes nuclear power plants to be built is not only simplistic and wrong, but taking advantage of people's fears. But then I would expect that from a party such as the SVP.

Last edited by Suisse2008; 04.04.2011 at 09:12.
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  #32  
Old 04.04.2011, 09:01
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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Stating that immigration causes nuclear power plants to be built is not only simplistic and wrong, but taking advantage of people's fears. But then I would expect that from a party such as the SVP.
This is the main goal of the party!
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  #33  
Old 04.04.2011, 09:02
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

A few years ago Bastien Girod from the green-party in Zürich came also with similar ideas but was then widely critized by his party. The policy of decrease to meet the challenges of the environment is gaining some popularity again, yet it's another form of malthusianism.
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Old 04.04.2011, 09:53
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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Again: I would be more than open to the discussion if it was not only populism: If the SVP would explain what Switzerland would have to do to keep its wealth while throwing out all the foreign talent that keeps the economy running here... or alternatively have a clear opinion and message who would have to expect what cuts when there is less taxes to distribute to the svp voting farmers.
The SVP is not really a solution party. It is a party that points out the problems that the other parties are ignoring and so forces the other parties to take up these topics. The solutions the SVP suggests are often cheap, quick and snappy if not absurd. The function of the rhetoric is to highlight the underlying problem and so enforce a debate. The absurder the suggested solution, the less the other parties can ignore the issue while moaning how evil the SVP is (although at first they always do try that approach for a while anyway). That is why IMHO the SVP is making a valuable contribution to shaking up a political system that has had it too easy for too long while ignoring some of the elephants in the room.
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Old 04.04.2011, 10:49
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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That is why IMHO the SVP is making a valuable contribution to shaking up a political system that has had it too easy for too long while ignoring some of the elephants in the room.
I fully agree to your view on what they are doing, but I do not agree that this is valuable at all: The SVP is the strongest party in Switzerland. They are represented in each and every low level political insititution all the way up to the Bundesrat. My expectations of the strongest political movement in a country is that they offer solutions and not only noise - which they don't. They need to come up with viable ways to deal with problems as they are the ones with the power to change the country. Instead they behave as if they are an opposition party having nothing to do with "the government" - they are part of it FFS, so don't just say what "those in Bern should do"... Behaving like a little child stomping with the feet is sometimes funny to watch (unless it's Mörgeli), but really bad for Switzerland. They lower the standards of political discussions in Switzerland to a level I can hardly read anymore.
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Old 04.04.2011, 10:54
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

Guess I`ll do my part and unplug the Microwave...
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Old 04.04.2011, 11:09
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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I fully agree to your view on what they are doing, but I do not agree that this is valuable at all: The SVP is the strongest party in Switzerland. They are represented in each and every low level political insititution all the way up to the Bundesrat. My expectations of the strongest political movement in a country is that they offer solutions and not only noise - which they don't. They need to come up with viable ways to deal with problems as they are the ones with the power to change the country. Instead they behave as if they are an opposition party having nothing to do with "the government" - they are part of it FFS, so don't just say what "those in Bern should do"... Behaving like a little child stomping with the feet is sometimes funny to watch (unless it's Mörgeli), but really bad for Switzerland. They lower the standards of political discussions in Switzerland to a level I can hardly read anymore.
But they are doing that. If you look at what SVP people in positions of power are doing (some notable exceptions apart), you will see they are taking resposnible decisions and leading projects in a responsible way. Look at politicians like Rita Fuhrer for example, she's said some really smart stuff in interviews and the projects she's been responsible for have all been well delivered, on time and in budget. I'd say she's completely trustworthy, much more so than some of her FDP counterparts. There isn't much gung-ho teabagging going on in her office. The SVP knows when it's on the campaign trail and when it's doing serious stuff. (the same can be said of other "fringe" parties like the Greens who are similarly so much more sensible when in power than when on the soap box)
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  #38  
Old 04.04.2011, 11:24
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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But they are doing that. If you look at what SVP people in positions of power are doing (some notable exceptions apart), you will see they are taking resposnible decisions and leading projects in a responsible way. Look at politicians like Rita Fuhrer for example, she's said some really smart stuff in interviews and the projects she's been responsible for have all been well delivered, on time and in budget. I'd say she's completely trustworthy, much more so than some of her FDP counterparts. There isn't much gung-ho teabagging going on in her office. The SVP knows when it's on the campaign trail and when it's doing serious stuff. (the same can be said of other "fringe" parties like the Greens who are similarly so much more sensible when in power than when on the soap box)
I always said that the SVP has "two faces": The old-school down to earth farmer party it has been for decades and the populistic rubbish Blocher has started. It's a bit like a mullet - business at the front and party at the back. But for me they have the same problem as mullets: Once you have seen the party-at-the-back part, you cannot take them seriously anymore...
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  #39  
Old 04.04.2011, 12:48
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

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But they are doing that. If you look at what SVP people in positions of power are doing (some notable exceptions apart), you will see they are taking resposnible decisions and leading projects in a responsible way.
In every party, there will be individuals who will appear reasonable. The SVP is not completely full of nutters. But the party is judged by their mandates, policy initiatives, etc., and in that regard the party is extreme. One cannot take away from the fact that the SVP's brothers-in-arms include other extremist parties such as the NPD and FN (shown by the posters above). Such extremism, whether left or right, leads to bizarre statements such as one made by Toni Brunner. Fewer immigrants will lead to fewer nuclear power plants; what utter nonsense!

I agree that the SVP is not a solution party; they are a problem party. It is an embarassment for Switzerland.
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Old 04.04.2011, 12:50
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Re: SVP: Foreigners to blame for Swiss Nuclear consumption

SVP in English stands for "Strangers Vanish Please" (the "please" is present only for legal reasons).
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