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  #21  
Old 05.04.2011, 16:06
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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yadi yadi.. loads of insults...
Nice try. The topic is the representation of immigrants in politics. The two examples are not average people: There are five parties in the German parliament. One has a leader with a migration background, the second one is likely to follow in a month. Switzerland has far more immigrants than Germany, but I do not believe that anything like this would be possible here.

Germany is not heaven for immigrants either. No place is. But it is more immigration friendly than Switzerland for sure: You can immigrate easier, you can vote on your local level if you are an EU national, you can become German within a few years... and people aparently are more open to different looking politicians by now.

But dont get my argument into your way of cheap polemics.
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  #22  
Old 05.04.2011, 16:41
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Nice try. The topic is the representation of immigrants in politics. The two examples are not average people: There are five parties in the German parliament. One has a leader with a migration background, the second one is likely to follow in a month. Switzerland has far more immigrants than Germany, but I do not believe that anything like this would be possible here.

Germany is not heaven for immigrants either. No place is. But it is more immigration friendly than Switzerland for sure: You can immigrate easier, you can vote on your local level if you are an EU national, you can become German within a few years... and people aparently are more open to different looking politicians by now.

But dont get my argument into your way of cheap polemics.
According to Chancellor Angela Merkel "multiculturalism has failed." The problem is that immigrants today want to come to more industrialized nations not to "integrate" but to take advantage of the higher quality of life while all the time creating their communities, not learning their host countries language, and basically leading separate lives. If they want to become politicians etc...then they have to prove that they understand the host countries way of life and want to "really" be part of it, not to get into office and then grant "their people" special rights and privileges.

For example if a person from India wants to get into Swiss politics. There's nothing wrong with that as long as he wants to respect the Swiss way of life and not try to turn Switzerland into India. Many times when immigrants have enough people from their country it does create power, and political power at that. So the host country should be careful about who they allow to make major decisions in their country.

Switzerland has the most immigrants out of all the European countries. You can check the statistics on that. It's just that Switzerland calls the shots, and immigrants are not going to come in and tell them how to run their country. No place is perfect, we all know that, and Switzerland no less so. And that's what makes countries unique. They have their own ways of doing things from language to eating. It makes it nice to visit different lands. I don't want to go to Italy and feel like I'm in Africa. Not to be PC here, but immigrants leave their countries, but their countries don't leave them. Which it shouldn't to a certain extent, but they should respect their host country. This is why multiculturalism is failing in industrialized nations. France is having problems too, Australia is on the way. Italy doesn't want more immigrants and want the rest of the EU to take on some of the weight because of the situation in Libya.
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  #23  
Old 05.04.2011, 16:42
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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To be fair - I am trying to think of a country where this wouldn't be the case. Minorities, and particularly recent-immigrant minorities, are famously underrepresented in politics.
Oh! I can proudly stand up and say that Canada has a LOT of foreign names in every politic party.

French, english, italians, irish, arabic, native american, south american, german, asian, name it, you'll find one and more!

And with 32 millions of people in the entire country, it should bring the % enough high to please Mister Corsebou.
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  #24  
Old 05.04.2011, 16:49
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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According to Chancellor Angela Merkel "multiculturalism has failed."
According to an increasing number of Germans is the one who actually failed Angela Merkel...
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Old 05.04.2011, 16:49
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Oh! I can proudly stand up and say that Canada has a LOT of foreign names in every politic party.
Yes, those two countries are so similar, it's eerie...
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Old 05.04.2011, 16:49
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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4. Lumengo is a SP candidate. Social democrats value certain democratic rules a bit higher than other parties do - so yes, I find it completely ok that the party asked him to either step down or leave the party. That he decided to leave the party says a lot about his values...
I don't quite get what you're trying to say. He was a liability to the SP so they had to get rid of him. You can't possibly get any positive spin out of what he did. Besides which, some of his other contributions weren't too well though through either, such as trying to ban Red Bull.
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  #27  
Old 05.04.2011, 16:51
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Oh! I can proudly stand up and say that Canada has a LOT of foreign names in every politic party.

French, english, italians, irish, arabic, native american, south american, german, asian, name it, you'll find one and more!

And with 32 millions of people in the entire country, it should bring the % enough high to please Mister Corsebou.
And we still end up with a Stephen Harper as our Prime Minister who couldn't hold parliament together if he used all the duct tape in the world. Which country could we blame for that I wonder?
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  #28  
Old 05.04.2011, 16:55
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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The German health minister, most likely the next FDP party leader in Germany: Adopted as a baby from a third world country.



Or Mr. Özdemir, currently one of the presidents of the German green party:


Honestly: I just linked an article with the 2011 results of a recurring integration study all over Europe and North America. Switzerland is scoring lower than a couple of years ago.
What makes you think that having a guy called Özdemir elected proves that integration has worked? Maybe it's the opposite. How many people of Turkish origin do you think voted for him because he was perceived as being one of them? (ie, opposite of proof of integration)
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  #29  
Old 05.04.2011, 16:59
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I guess this one's last name (and even more so his middle name) constitute pretty good proof:



But to be fair, it took many, many generations for this to happen in the US (not only accepting his unusual name, but simply being black). So I suspect it will take at least a few decades before we can stamp out this kind of discrimination. There has been a setback with Lumengo which is really too bad. But one day there will be foreign-named Swiss in the Federal Council.
Yes, but what percentage of African Americans voted for him? I heard it was well over 80%. So people do still vote according to colour. A Black being elected doesn't prove that integration is working. It proves that the racial mix of the country is changing. I'll only believe that integration works when I see a member of a very small minority elected.
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  #30  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:01
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I don't quite get what you're trying to say. He was a liability to the SP so they had to get rid of him. You can't possibly get any positive spin out of what he did. Besides which, some of his other contributions weren't too well though through either, such as trying to ban Red Bull.
As far as I remembered the SP gave him a choice:
- accept the verdict of the first instance, step down as a MP and stay in the SP
- get lost

If I remeber correctly he kept his seat in parliament and left the SP. I do not excuse him at all, the opposite actually. Not sure why this is not clear...
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  #31  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:05
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Yes, but what percentage of African Americans voted for him? I heard it was well over 80%. So people do still vote according to colour.
Wow - slowly, you are really jumping to conclusions here. How can you know that the 80% voted for him because of his color? I am not black, but if the choice is Obama or McCain, I would vote for the black guy. Obamas policies are from so many angles better for the average demographics of the African American part of the society that there are countless of other reasons to vote for him than his skin color. Health insurance, education,... you name it.

(If he kept all the promises he made is another question... )
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  #32  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:07
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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And we still end up with a Stephen Harper as our Prime Minister who couldn't hold parliament together if he used all the duct tape in the world. Which country could we blame for that I wonder?
Don't get me start on him....

Now if Amogles and Corsebou could make a check list of all the points needed to fit their criterias, we might go somewhere. But right now, no matter who says what, it doesn't satisfied them. What's the point to debate if they are making up their own criterias and don't share them with us?

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  #33  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:09
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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As far as I remembered the SP gave him a choice:
- accept the verdict of the first instance, step down as a MP and stay in the SP
- get lost

If I remeber correctly he kept his seat in parliament and left the SP. I do not excuse him at all, the opposite actually. Not sure why this is not clear...
You said "That he decided to leave the party says a lot about his values..." and I was just wondering what you can infer from his values over his decison to quit the party and remain an MP.

Basically he could have stayed in the party but stepped down as an MP and maybe over a period of time rebuilt trust and eventually be re-elected.

He chose to hang on to power but will certainly not be elected again when his term finishes.

So her chose short term gain at the cost of long term ruin rather than vice-versa, but what does this teach us about his values?
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  #34  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:12
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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What makes you think that having a guy called Özdemir elected proves that integration has worked? Maybe it's the opposite. How many people of Turkish origin do you think voted for him because he was perceived as being one of them? (ie, opposite of proof of integration)
I don't know if I find some statistics, but Özdemir continuously clashes with big parts of the less well integrated Turkish community in Germany. he is green, remember? From openly critizising Erdogan or conservative Islam to fighting for women's rights: He stands for pretty much the opposite of the values many Turks in Germany have - that's exactly the point which makes him "integrated" for me.

If there is a Turkish politician fighting for a Minarett - not necessarily a sign of integration.
If there is a Turkish politician saying that forced marriage of your German raised daughters is wrong - very likely a sign of integration.
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  #35  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:15
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Wow - slowly, you are really jumping to conclusions here. How can you know that the 80% voted for him because of his color? I am not black, but if the choice is Obama or McCain, I would vote for the black guy. Obamas policies are from so many angles better for the average demographics of the African American part of the society that there are countless of other reasons to vote for him than his skin color. Health insurance, education,... you name it.

(If he kept all the promises he made is another question... )
Well, they did also massively support him in the primaries vs Clinton. I don't think Clinton's performance would have been worse than Obamas on average.

The proof of the test would be to set up a Black guy as a conservative Republican and pit him against a white guy as a left-of-centre Democrat and see how that would have turned out. Unfortunately you can't re-run history. Would be nice to see though
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  #36  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:20
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I don't know if I find some statistics, but Özdemir continuously clashes with big parts of the less well integrated Turkish community in Germany. he is green, remember? From openly critizising Erdogan or conservative Islam to fighting for women's rights: He stands for pretty much the opposite of the values many Turks in Germany have - that's exactly the point which makes him "integrated" for me.

If there is a Turkish politician fighting for a Minarett - not necessarily a sign of integration.
If there is a Turkish politician saying that forced marriage of your German raised daughters is wrong - very likely a sign of integration.
But do the people who voted for him knew that?
What if they only voted for him "just for his name" (a bit the same like the Swiss who allegedly don't vote for someone with a foreigner's name in Switzerland)....
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  #37  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:20
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I don't know if I find some statistics, but Özdemir continuously clashes with big parts of the less well integrated Turkish community in Germany. he is green, remember? From openly critizising Erdogan or conservative Islam to fighting for women's rights: He stands for pretty much the opposite of the values many Turks in Germany have - that's exactly the point which makes him "integrated" for me.

If there is a Turkish politician fighting for a Minarett - not necessarily a sign of integration.
If there is a Turkish politician saying that forced marriage of your German raised daughters is wrong - very likely a sign of integration.
But does the average Turk on the streets of Stuttgart percieve him that way? I don't now. It would be interesting to see a breakdown of voting habits along ethnic lines.

Have you ever wondered why Turkey always gets so many votes from Germany in the Eurovison song contest? (okay, before you grill me for comparing that to a political election, the last remark was in jest)
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  #38  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:22
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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But do the people who voted for him knew that?
What if they only voted for him "just for his name" (a bit the same like the Swiss who allegedly don't vote for someone with a foreigner's name in Switzerland)....
You take people for more stupid than they really are...
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  #39  
Old 05.04.2011, 17:27
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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You take people for more stupid than they really are...
Well apparently people would not vote for someone because his name sounds from foreigner origins. Why other people would not vote for someone because his name sounds from similar origin?

It does not works both ways?
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Old 05.04.2011, 17:28
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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But do the people who voted for him knew that?
What if they only voted for him "just for his name" (a bit the same like the Swiss who allegedly don't vote for someone with a foreigner's name in Switzerland)....
Trust me: He is annoying loud enough that people get the general idea.
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