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-   -   The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland... (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/110701-proven-disadvantage-foreign-name-switzerland.html)

SamWeiseVielleicht 06.04.2011 15:07

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
"Panschieren" and "kumulieren" are widely used here, especially by the left.

In order to put the article a bit into perspective:

The article mentions that: "In der Altstadt wurde Ökonom Zülfikâr Güzelgün von Platz 3 auf den letzten Platz durchgereicht." which translates roughly to " in the old town (of Zürich) Mr. Güzelgün who was number 3 on the list finished last".

Sounds terrible, I agree. But:

Primo:

1. The two women (with swiss names) who garnered the most votes were incumbents, while Mr. Güzelgün was a first time candidate.
2. One of them is the (co) president of the SP in the city of Zürich and head of campaign management on the national level, while the other one is director of Peace Brigades International Switzerland, has been in the Kantonsrat for 10 years and was a Gemeinderat (city council) before that.

That Mr. Güzelgün lost against these two is certainly sad for him. But I seriously doubt that any social scientist who respects himself would opt for underlying racism when confronted with the task of identifying the most important factor for this result.

Secundo:

1. He finished last on a list of 5 names, not 20 or 30.
2. The two candidates who overtook him are both gemeinderäte.
3. Both of them have held important positions in the SP Stadt Zürich
3. They are: Andrew Katumba and Fiammetta Jahreis (sic).

Mr. Katumba has an Ugandan father, his mother is from the Ukraine. He has been a prominent voice for immigrants (secon@plus etc.) for years etc. etc.


Mrs Jahreiss was born and raised in Italy, was a founding member of SP Migration and has worked until recently as the regional head of a foundation that provides training for migrants etc. etc.


Now, I still believe that there is a bias against people with names ending in -ic and -gül, even on the left and especially if the person is not that well known and a first time candidate.

But I do believe that the conclusions drawn in the article are way over the top.

amogles 06.04.2011 15:10

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SamWeiseVielleicht (Post 1160607)
Mr. Katumba has an Ugandan father, his mother is from the Ukraine. He has been a prominent voice for immigrants (secon@plus etc.) for years etc. etc.

also famous for his use of the N word on campaign material some years ago.

SamWeiseVielleicht 06.04.2011 15:17

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1160618)
also famous for his use of the N word on campaign material some years ago.

He used it to counter the SVPs "Wir schweizer sind immer die N." in an ironic way, by saying that if this claim is true, then it would be "about time to elect a real one". While campaigning for the national council on the second@plus list...

Here he is

http://www.videoportal.sf.tv/cvis/se...0830?width=179

MrVertigo 18.05.2011 17:30

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1159078)
That article is a bit simplistic.

1. Lumengo did break the law. He claims that he only wanted to "help" others to fill out their election forms, but I cannot believe him that a democratic politician did not have the slightest clue that this might be wrong...

2. Blocher aparently tried to vote twice in a Parliamentary vote, that's something a bit less drastic than filling out many voting forms.

3. Other politicians who did the same as Lumengo got a similar punishment.

4. Lumengo is a SP candidate. Social democrats value certain democratic rules a bit higher than other parties do - so yes, I find it completely ok that the party asked him to either step down or leave the party. That he decided to leave the party says a lot about his values...

The Bern supreme court declared Lumengo innocent from electoral fraud.

amogles 18.05.2011 17:36

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 1200836)
The Bern supreme court declared Lumengo innocent from electoral fraud.

I'm not sure what to make of this. So the court says that filling in other people's ballots papers is not electoral fraud? Sounds like a very thin line to me.

Either way, he remains a liability and will have to work hard to restore public confidence if he wants to continue with his career in politics.

MrVertigo 18.05.2011 17:41

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
It means that the definition of "electoral fraud" is something quite vague.
The fact that he did not put the bulletin in the envelope and not use the voter's card was enough for the supreme court.

Guest 18.05.2011 17:44

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1200848)
I'm not sure what to make of this. So the court says that filling in other people's ballots papers is not electoral fraud? Sounds like a very thin line to me.

Either way, he remains a liability and will have to work hard to restore public confidence if he wants to continue with his career in politics.


Woolishofener has admitted quite candidly that his mum and aunts give him their voting papers to use. This is NOT uncommon here in CH, especially in rural areas- so many men get 2, 3 4 or more votes. Surely that is fraud too.

herc82 18.05.2011 17:47

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Woolishofener has admitted quite candidly that his mum and aunts give him their voting papers to use. This is NOT uncommon here in CH, especially in rural areas- so many men get 2, 3 4 or more votes. Surely that is fraud too.
You mean that they give away their vote or they let somebody else fill the papers because they do not feel savvy enough? There is a slight difference I think...

Oh yes, and it must be only men that do this :rolleyes:

MrVertigo 18.05.2011 17:50

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by herc82 (Post 1200867)
You mean that they give away their vote or they let somebody else fill the papers because they do not feel savvy enough? There is a slight difference I think...

Oh yes, and it must be only men that do this :rolleyes:

you have 2 envelopes:
- one that contains your vote and can be given sealed
- one that has your name/address on it

you have to put the 2 in different boxes. It's clear that someone could exchange the first envelope to change the vote....but i assume probity is part of Wolli's values.

Wollishofener 18.05.2011 23:43

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Woolishofener has admitted quite candidly that his mum and aunts give him their voting papers to use. This is NOT uncommon here in CH, especially in rural areas- so many men get 2, 3 4 or more votes. Surely that is fraud too.
No fraud at all :D as you REPRESENT your relatives in a most decent way, so that their voting power does not get lost. This is perfectly LEGAL and absolutely above board :p:D True, it makes you a "Multiple voter" !

Wollishofener 18.05.2011 23:46

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrVertigo (Post 1200874)
you have 2 envelopes:
- one that contains your vote and can be given sealed
- one that has your name/address on it

you have to put the 2 in different boxes. It's clear that someone could exchange the first envelope to change the vote....but i assume probity is part of Wolli's values.

NO, when sending in the vote, you only have ONE SINGLE envelope. The cover sheet with the signature is inside the major envelope on top and the small envelope inside the major envelope contains your actual voting papers

Lejoker 18.05.2011 23:53

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1158799)
I worked with a very Swiss Serbian before who told me how hard it is to find a job if your name ends with "-ic" here. I believed him, but found this article still quite surprising:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/29657249

For those who do not know the Swiss voting system: You get long lists with the candidates of each party. You can simply make a cross at the top of the list to vote for one party. But you can also cumulate votes - ginving a candidate two votes - or strike through a name you do not like to not give him a vote. I counted votes in Germany in a very similar system before and I can tell you that it is a pain to count the votes of somebody who really wants to use all the possibilities he has... anyhow: In the Zurich cantonal elections of last weekend, all candidates with a foreign sounding name lost significantly. If enough people strike through your name you will get less votes than the ones below you on the list. At the end, every candidate gets his votes counted and if a party gets x seats in the parliament, the top x candidates by votes will get the seat. People with an immigration background were explicitedly "downvoted" from the lists while the parties apparently believed them to be competent enough to give them good starting positions. This would of course not surprise in the case of the SVP, but it was the case for every single party in Switzerland!

The frustrations of some who recognized that they have zero chance to make any political career here are so high that they consider to start a own party for people with an immigration background. They claim that the parties cash in on the votes of their minorities, but through the down voting do not need to give anything back to them...


Wouldn't it be 'democratic' to vote for the candidate you desire??!? that's like saying that ugly candidates do not stand a chance to get elected :p

st2lemans 19.05.2011 00:01

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1201162)
No fraud at all :D as you REPRESENT your relatives in a most decent way, so that their voting power does not get lost. This is perfectly LEGAL and absolutely above board :p:D True, it makes you a "Multiple voter" !

Did that before I was Swiss. Wife didn't know/care how to vote, so I filled them in, and we went together to vote.

Now that I'm widowed, with a Swiss girlfriend and two adult daughters, I get FOUR votes! :D

Tom

st2lemans 19.05.2011 00:26

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Meanwhile, my girlfriend has a decidedly NON-Swiss surname (Polish, in fact), but other than having trouble spelling it, no-one has ever questioned it as being Swiss (OK, her great grandfather came here in the 1860s, and her father was a famous Swiss artist).

Tom

Treverus 19.05.2011 00:40

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lejoker (Post 1201178)
Wouldn't it be 'democratic' to vote for the candidate you desire??!? that's like saying that ugly candidates do not stand a chance to get elected :p

? And your point is? The system is surely democratic. Very much so. That's actually the point: Swiss voters from left to right vote for their candidates, but actively strike through the foreign sounding names. No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians. At least on the political left is that a surprise for me and I am sure you will have a hard time finding scientific data supporting your ugliness argument. After all is Calmy-Rey even a Bundesrat...

http://www.bundesrate.ch/typo3temp/pics/c6186c3a5a.jpg

Wollishofener 19.05.2011 00:58

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 1201196)
Meanwhile, my girlfriend has a decidedly NON-Swiss surname (Polish, in fact), but other than having trouble spelling it, no-one has ever questioned it as being Swiss (OK, her great grandfather came here in the 1860s, and her father was a famous Swiss artist).

Tom

Swarovski is a very good ZüRICH name :D as is Schawinski and Schmuklerski ;)

Wollishofener 19.05.2011 01:01

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1201202)
? And your point is? The system is surely democratic. Very much so. That's actually the point: Swiss voters from left to right vote for their candidates, but actively strike through the foreign sounding names. No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians. At least on the political left is that a surprise for me and I am sure you will have a hard time finding scientific data supporting your ugliness argument. After all is Calmy-Rey even a Bundesrat...

http://www.bundesrate.ch/typo3temp/pics/c6186c3a5a.jpg

Explains why the Abdel-Aziz family in recent elections in Opfikon-Glattbrugg moved, together with people with Italian and ex-Yugo...- names into the city-parliament :D

st2lemans 19.05.2011 08:49

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1201208)
Swarovski is a very good ZüRICH name :D as is Schawinski and Schmuklerski ;)

I've met Roger Schawinski (he speaks excellent English), as we did the matrix/mixers for his Radio 1.

Tom

Lex 19.05.2011 09:17

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Suisse2008 (Post 1160254)
Switzerland won't be bad for too much longer. The signs of the times are seen when Biel elected Lumengo.

Whoa, that turned out incredibly well. Well done.

Guest 19.05.2011 09:28

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1201162)
No fraud at all :D as you REPRESENT your relatives in a most decent way, so that their voting power does not get lost. This is perfectly LEGAL and absolutely above board :p:D True, it makes you a "Multiple voter" !

Well yes... however wouldn't be true to say that it is mainly men who get those multiple family votes. What happens to the basic democratic principle to
1 human = 1 vote. And yes, women who 'give' away their voting rights to their men, be they their husband, son, etc - have only got themselves to blame. Imho, this multiple voting by the back door should not be allowed. Amazing really- and I must say I am proud to have been raised by a woman who took real interest in what was happening around her, and wouldn't have ever 'given HER vote' to anybody. Quite shocking that some women still feel that they should do that - btw have you ever heard of a man giving his vote to his wife and daughters? Of course in the UK, this practice was investigated as abuses of this type were found in some of the Asian communities. To condone this multiple votes is totally un-democratic imho. Sorry Wooli- nothing personal here, just the principle at stake. If this practice is commonplace in some areas of CH, I suspect rural mainly- then this loophole should be closed.

It is a very interesting issue, one I'd never thought possible before. I shall contact local politicians and discuss this with them. It would be worth some proper investigating- perhaps the Press would be interested in taking that on. I can feel a documentary coming on.

Treverus 19.05.2011 10:03

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1201210)
Explains why the Abdel-Aziz family in recent elections in Opfikon-Glattbrugg moved, together with people with Italian and ex-Yugo...- names into the city-parliament :D

Just because you find examples of foreign sounding names in politics does not at all proof the article in the original post wrong.

Why does every thread turn into a dump after like three pages? There were some fairly serious points in the original topic and in the end we always have some one-line sweeping statements...

amogles 19.05.2011 11:06

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1201402)
Just because you find examples of foreign sounding names in politics does not at all proof the article in the original post wrong.

As we discussed in the homeopathy thread, anecdotal examples do not constitute scientific evidence.

The orgiinal article argued with examples. The counter example also produces examples. As long as we don't see some serious statistics with a sample size that is statistically relevant and that furthermore corrects for other factors that may cause people to cross candidates out, we are still just pissing in the wind and this whole thread is just discussing a non factoid.

Lejoker 19.05.2011 13:17

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1201202)
? And your point is? The system is surely democratic. Very much so. That's actually the point: Swiss voters from left to right vote for their candidates, but actively strike through the foreign sounding names. No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians. At least on the political left is that a surprise for me and I am sure you will have a hard time finding scientific data supporting your ugliness argument. After all is Calmy-Rey even a Bundesrat...

http://www.bundesrate.ch/typo3temp/pics/c6186c3a5a.jpg

My point is that you can't force people into diversifying?! their votes simply to be politically correct...that alone beats the purpose of voting.

cobenz 19.05.2011 14:37

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.

lost_inbroad 19.05.2011 15:00

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cobenz (Post 1201768)
In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.

Given that Sikhs and Muslims are not part of the traditional European setting, I believe that it has done pretty darn well so far.

Wollishofener 19.05.2011 23:31

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 1201285)
I've met Roger Schawinski (he speaks excellent English), as we did the matrix/mixers for his Radio 1.

Tom

I would have expected it to be so, as he studied at a university in Chicago

Wollishofener 19.05.2011 23:34

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Well yes... however wouldn't be true to say that it is mainly men who get those multiple family votes. What happens to the basic democratic principle to
1 human = 1 vote. And yes, women who 'give' away their voting rights to their men, be they their husband, son, etc - have only got themselves to blame. Imho, this multiple voting by the back door should not be allowed. Amazing really- and I must say I am proud to have been raised by a woman who took real interest in what was happening around her, and wouldn't have ever 'given HER vote' to anybody. Quite shocking that some women still feel that they should do that - btw have you ever heard of a man giving his vote to his wife and daughters? Of course in the UK, this practice was investigated as abuses of this type were found in some of the Asian communities. To condone this multiple votes is totally un-democratic imho. Sorry Wooli- nothing personal here, just the principle at stake. If this practice is commonplace in some areas of CH, I suspect rural mainly- then this loophole should be closed.

It is a very interesting issue, one I'd never thought possible before. I shall contact local politicians and discuss this with them. It would be worth some proper investigating- perhaps the Press would be interested in taking that on. I can feel a documentary coming on.
You of course need to have the signature of the "owner" on the cover-sheet, as it is THEIR vote :D

Wollishofener 19.05.2011 23:40

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1201402)
Just because you find examples of foreign sounding names in politics does not at all proof the article in the original post wrong.

Why does every thread turn into a dump after like three pages? There were some fairly serious points in the original topic and in the end we always have some one-line sweeping statements...


The OP was right and wrong at very much the same time. People with names from former Yugoslavia have it clearly more difficult to get elected than others, for example. But not THAT much more difficult. And it gradually will even become an advantage. Why ? Because it is now long enough ago since so many Kosovari and other ex-Yugoslavs fled to CH that they now can and will become CH citizens. And they when voting will find names known from the the old home-country sympathetic .

Wollishofener 19.05.2011 23:45

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1201489)
As we discussed in the homeopathy thread, anecdotal examples do not constitute scientific evidence.

The orgiinal article argued with examples. The counter example also produces examples. As long as we don't see some serious statistics with a sample size that is statistically relevant and that furthermore corrects for other factors that may cause people to cross candidates out, we are still just pissing in the wind and this whole thread is just discussing a non factoid.

Even the best statistics would be contradictory in a way. That "certain" names are negative in an election is self-evident and not disputed, but it cannot be taken as a rule.

Add to this that quite a lot depends on WHERE you are located. A person with a "foreign-sounding and exotic" name in a remote village will only have a very small chance to succeed, while such a person in Zurich and outer suburbs has practically the same chance than a local.

Wollishofener 19.05.2011 23:53

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cobenz (Post 1201768)
In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.

Well, Switzerland twice had a Jewish Federal President, France has a Habsburger of Hungarian-Austrian origin as state president. Zurich has a Lesbian City President. Berlin and Paris have gay City Presidents. In national and regional and municipal parliaments, the share of people with "outside origin" is increasing. So that it is only a question of WHEN and WHERE there will be a Head of State or Head of Government of NON-European origin. It may be a "long way" or a "very long way" or a "fairly short way" to go, but things in general are on their way.

simon_ch 20.05.2011 01:12

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians.
That of course, cannot be deducted by a short article in a newspaper that in the same article mentions several contradicting cases. Not exactly statistical proof let alone a solid conclusion.
So we know that in a very small sample some politicians with foreign sounding names did not get good results, while some politicians with foreign names did. And from that we deduct that Swiss are racist and xenophobic across all political parties? Seriously?
Is it maybe possible that some of the politicians with foreign sounding names were actually foreign (as in, not Swiss) before long and that they simply aren't as acquainted with Swiss local politics or known among the electorate? Or is it possible, maybe, that the SP actively tries to make their politicians more diverse than their electorate really are? (It's not exactly working class people that vote for SP nowadays) Let us suppose that the SP favors party members with foreign backgrounds, which backfires at the elections because people simply don't know them? I am only speculating here of course, but this simple conclusion without any analysis seems rather silly to me. A tiny bit of research (length of party membership for example) would be great imho. If you look at overall party membership and local politicians in Switzerland the only group that is "discriminated" if you want, are Swiss men without foreign backgrounds as they form by far the largest group of politicians in CH but are underrepresented in federal and cantonal parliaments and in the federal council (despite still forming the majority :-) ). I have no problem with that, but I certainly wouldn't cry foul without looking at backgrounds and facts first. Only a second article by the Tagesanzeiger for example mentioned that many Swiss names were crossed out as well, it's just a common thing to do, omitting this fact is almost deliberate deceit. Now mind, as I have mentioned in other threads, I don't deny at all that people with foreign sounding names have it harder in CH in many aspects, probably also politics. But I am very careful with such quick conclusions, and the Tagesanzeiger backtracked for a reason.

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.05.2011 05:05

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1159332)
Yes, but what percentage of African Americans voted for him? I heard it was well over 80%. So people do still vote according to colour. A Black being elected doesn't prove that integration is working. It proves that the racial mix of the country is changing. I'll only believe that integration works when I see a member of a very small minority elected.


If blacks had voted for Obama at the level they did for Clinton (from the same party, most blacks are democrat and vote that way regardless of the race of the candidate) Obama still would have won. Obama got 2/3 of the Latino vote, and more of the white vote than Bill Clinton (who never got a majority of the white vote either). I believe most white women voted for Obama, but not men...don't quote me on the very last sentence.




Still, you can look at the governors of South Carolina (Nikki Randhawa Haley) and Louisiana (Bobby Jindal). They are both Indian American, children of Indian immigrants, one from Southern India, one from Northern India. If you look at the demographics of either state, you will see Indians are not even 5% and they are both Republican, so voted in by a white majority. Blacks definitely would not vote for a Republican in the south in mass.

So did integration work?

I don't believe there is any Bundesland in Germany or Swiss Canton headed by a second generation immigrant...especially not a visible minority.

cobenz 21.05.2011 08:07

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lost_inbroad (Post 1201806)
Given that Sikhs and Muslims are not part of the traditional European setting, I believe that it has done pretty darn well so far.

Yeah....sure. I noticed you ignored the Italian woman. Maybe they have done darn well as well in the european political system ? or are they a rare species too ?

Wollishofener 21.05.2011 10:49

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1203356)
If blacks had voted for Obama at the level they did for Clinton (from the same party, most blacks are democrat and vote that way regardless of the race of the candidate) Obama still would have won. Obama got 2/3 of the Latino vote, and more of the white vote than Bill Clinton (who never got a majority of the white vote either). I believe most white women voted for Obama, but not men...don't quote me on the very last sentence.




Still, you can look at the governors of South Carolina (Nikki Randhawa Haley) and Louisiana (Bobby Jindal). They are both Indian American, children of Indian immigrants, one from Southern India, one from Northern India. If you look at the demographics of either state, you will see Indians are not even 5% and they are both Republican, so voted in by a white majority. Blacks definitely would not vote for a Republican in the south in mass.

So did integration work?

I don't believe there is any Bundesland in Germany or Swiss Canton headed by a second generation immigrant...especially not a visible minority.



A) let's first have a look at Louisiana and South Carolina. Both have a black population share of 30%, and as even a "dark white" gets more acceptance among blacks than among "fellow" whites, it is obvious that the Blacks in both states most presumably DID give the two exIndia Secondos their vote by a heavy margin. To give an example, Nader whenever being a candidate for anything got support from the Blacks, in spite of him being clearly white.

B) In German speaking Switzerland, also Ticinesi and Italians are perceived as immigrants, and their Secondos know it, and the Secondos born before 1960 can still only too well remember the times when THEY were victim of xenophobia. If you now see how many people of It/TI origin ARE in governmental functions all around, then THIS IS integration.

C) In Germany, you can see Secondos of Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and most of all TURKISH origin in parliaments of Bundesländer and the Union, so that it only is a matter of a few years until one of the Prime Ministers will be a Secondo

D) France already now has City Presidents of Black, of Italian and of Arab origin

C) MLK Memorial. I gave a visit to the original location in 1982, and then in 1997 twice to the splendid new location. A small Museum, sure (not the Metropolitan or Smithsonian ;) ) but a very nice place. To be highly recommended. What irritated me was the (NOT total !) absence of Whites. I spoke with the cashier of the Souvenir Shop and told her that I thought this to be shabby. She comforted me and told me "look you have to give them time. it will take another decade or two" . I hope the picture in the meantime has changed, changed towards a "rainbow coalition" . :)

Wollishofener 21.05.2011 10:58

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cobenz (Post 1203375)
Yeah....sure. I noticed you ignored the Italian woman. Maybe they have done darn well as well in the european political system ? or are they a rare species too ?

The "Italian women" happens to be the daughter-in-law of Indira Ghandi, one of the greatest Indian Prime Ministers, AND the grand-daughter-in-law of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, the man who actually built up (on the basis of Mahatma Ghandi) modern India. And so, in a country which in regard to ethnical structure ranges from White to dark Black, by geography from the highest mountains on earth to the lowest-lying tropical jungles on earth (and in between some deserts), she is not so much outside the main picture as you possibly imply ;)

twoashley 21.05.2011 11:15

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cobenz (Post 1201768)
In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.

And a muslim president that half the country would not be able to name either. Come to think of it, i don't remember India's Vice-President's name either...

AmericanGotWorkVisa 21.05.2011 14:06

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1203409)
A) let's first have a look at Louisiana and South Carolina. Both have a black population share of 30%, and as even a "dark white" gets more acceptance among blacks than among "fellow" whites, it is obvious that the Blacks in both states most presumably DID give the two exIndia Secondos their vote by a heavy margin. To give an example, Nader whenever being a candidate for anything got support from the Blacks, in spite of him being clearly white.

B) In German speaking Switzerland, also Ticinesi and Italians are perceived as immigrants, and their Secondos know it, and the Secondos born before 1960 can still only too well remember the times when THEY were victim of xenophobia. If you now see how many people of It/TI origin ARE in governmental functions all around, then THIS IS integration.

C) In Germany, you can see Secondos of Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and most of all TURKISH origin in parliaments of Bundesländer and the Union, so that it only is a matter of a few years until one of the Prime Ministers will be a Secondo

D) France already now has City Presidents of Black, of Italian and of Arab origin

C) MLK Memorial. I gave a visit to the original location in 1982, and then in 1997 twice to the splendid new location. A small Museum, sure (not the Metropolitan or Smithsonian ;) ) but a very nice place. To be highly recommended. What irritated me was the (NOT total !) absence of Whites. I spoke with the cashier of the Souvenir Shop and told her that I thought this to be shabby. She comforted me and told me "look you have to give them time. it will take another decade or two" . I hope the picture in the meantime has changed, changed towards a "rainbow coalition" . :)

I could care less about the MLK museum to be honest they are building an American American Smithsonian that will be completed in about 3 or 4 years.


As far as your #1, that is wrong. I am sorry, but I'm not sure you know much about Southern politics or racial politics in America at all.

In the South of America, at a state level, the more blacks that are in the state the more whites vote Republican. Politics has been more racialized in the South than anywhere else for historic reasons and still is. But it is not racialized in the way you stated, it is the reverse. I've lived half my life in "the South".

That is not my opinion that comes from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/op...1schaller.html

The race of the candidate, at least for blacks is unimportant in the South, blacks almost always vote in mass for white governors in the South, but they usually have to be Democrat. They might vote a little more (higher turnout) for a black candidate. Haley and Jindal are Republican and not black.

Nadar? Come on. Nadar is a far left liberal and rarely gets than 2% of the black vote nationwide when he runs for president. The only reason he gets that is because he is a far left liberal. Most people in America see Arab Nadar as a white man, I bet most people don't even know he is an Arab. He is no less white than many "Italians" we have running for office in this country, trust me he is not treated like the average Saudi. LOL Nadar being a non-Muslim name and the fact he looks like a Southern European, he just does not stand out.

Who told you "dark whites" get more respect with blacks? Based on what? Besides Italian mafia movies, I've never heard such a thing, and I've been black all my life, mostly in America, and I've lived in 3 states, and been to at least half the states in the country.

In the governors race, you have it opposite. It is more the fact whites in the South are more likely to vote for a non-black minority, than a black due to historic reason, their racism is specific, not broad.



As far as those elections specifically, lets look at Jindal's election, he only got 10% of the black vote, which is not shocking, nationwide for Presidential elections REpublicans usually get about 10-15% of the black vote, that would include George W. Bush, George HW Bush, etc.

http://www.nola.com/elections/index....sters_sta.html

In fact there was low black voter turn out that year as the article says, meaning they were excited to vote for the Democrat or Republican.

Jindal being of Indian ethnicity did not help him with blacks, it seemed to help him no more than being a white Republican.

Wollishofener 21.05.2011 16:40

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1203528)
I could care less about the MLK museum to be honest they are building an American American Smithsonian that will be completed in about 3 or 4 years.


As far as your #1, that is wrong. I am sorry, but I'm not sure you know much about Southern politics or racial politics in America at all.

In the South of America, at a state level, the more blacks that are in the state the more whites vote Republican. Politics has been more racialized in the South than anywhere else for historic reasons and still is. But it is not racialized in the way you stated, it is the reverse. I've lived half my life in "the South".

That is not my opinion that comes from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/op...1schaller.html

The race of the candidate, at least for blacks is unimportant in the South, blacks almost always vote in mass for white governors in the South, but they usually have to be Democrat. They might vote a little more (higher turnout) for a black candidate. Haley and Jindal are Republican and not black.

Nadar? Come on. Nadar is a far left liberal and rarely gets than 2% of the black vote nationwide when he runs for president. The only reason he gets that is because he is a far left liberal. Most people in America see Arab Nadar as a white man, I bet most people don't even know he is an Arab. He is no less white than many "Italians" we have running for office in this country, trust me he is not treated like the average Saudi. LOL Nadar being a non-Muslim name and the fact he looks like a Southern European, he just does not stand out.

Who told you "dark whites" get more respect with blacks? Based on what? Besides Italian mafia movies, I've never heard such a thing, and I've been black all my life, mostly in America, and I've lived in 3 states, and been to at least half the states in the country.

In the governors race, you have it opposite. It is more the fact whites in the South are more likely to vote for a non-black minority, than a black due to historic reason, their racism is specific, not broad.



As far as those elections specifically, lets look at Jindal's election, he only got 10% of the black vote, which is not shocking, nationwide for Presidential elections REpublicans usually get about 10-15% of the black vote, that would include George W. Bush, George HW Bush, etc.

http://www.nola.com/elections/index....sters_sta.html

In fact there was low black voter turn out that year as the article says, meaning they were excited to vote for the Democrat or Republican.

Jindal being of Indian ethnicity did not help him with blacks, it seemed to help him no more than being a white Republican.

What do I know about racism in the Deep South. Answer :
a lot & nothing ! What do I mean by that ? I have relatives in Texas and Louisiana and paid four extensive visits to the area (incl Georgia and South Carolina) but never lived there. Some, particular older ones regretfully ARE racists, in spite of otherwise being nice and hospitable, which at times can be rather depressing. With the NON- or anti-racist, I had many discussions until 2 or 3 am, got a lot of input but also a bit of confusion. Much of what I stated above is not "scientific" but personal impression.

Nadir is an Arab name (Christian AND Muslim) and that he is a White is logical as Arabs around the Med are generally as "White" as those on the northern side.

cobenz 21.05.2011 18:50

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by twoashley (Post 1203425)
And a muslim president that half the country would not be able to name either. Come to think of it, i don't remember India's Vice-President's name either...

you are wrong my friend.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam is actually a legend and the man behind India's space and ballistic missile development program

21.05.2011 22:42

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AmericanGotWorkVisa (Post 1203528)
I could care less about the MLK museum to be honest they are building an American American Smithsonian that will be completed in about 3 or 4 years.


As far as your #1, that is wrong. I am sorry, but I'm not sure you know much about Southern politics or racial politics in America at all.

In the South of America, at a state level, the more blacks that are in the state the more whites vote Republican. Politics has been more racialized in the South than anywhere else for historic reasons and still is. But it is not racialized in the way you stated, it is the reverse. I've lived half my life in "the South".

That is not my opinion that comes from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/op...1schaller.html

The race of the candidate, at least for blacks is unimportant in the South, blacks almost always vote in mass for white governors in the South, but they usually have to be Democrat. They might vote a little more (higher turnout) for a black candidate. Haley and Jindal are Republican and not black.

Nadar? Come on. Nadar is a far left liberal and rarely gets than 2% of the black vote nationwide when he runs for president. The only reason he gets that is because he is a far left liberal. Most people in America see Arab Nadar as a white man, I bet most people don't even know he is an Arab. He is no less white than many "Italians" we have running for office in this country, trust me he is not treated like the average Saudi. LOL Nadar being a non-Muslim name and the fact he looks like a Southern European, he just does not stand out.

Who told you "dark whites" get more respect with blacks? Based on what? Besides Italian mafia movies, I've never heard such a thing, and I've been black all my life, mostly in America, and I've lived in 3 states, and been to at least half the states in the country.

In the governors race, you have it opposite. It is more the fact whites in the South are more likely to vote for a non-black minority, than a black due to historic reason, their racism is specific, not broad.



As far as those elections specifically, lets look at Jindal's election, he only got 10% of the black vote, which is not shocking, nationwide for Presidential elections REpublicans usually get about 10-15% of the black vote, that would include George W. Bush, George HW Bush, etc.

http://www.nola.com/elections/index....sters_sta.html

In fact there was low black voter turn out that year as the article says, meaning they were excited to vote for the Democrat or Republican.

Jindal being of Indian ethnicity did not help him with blacks, it seemed to help him no more than being a white Republican.

I am only just beginning to understand it. My sister has been in the South for about 30 years and is involved in politics, set up a regional Obama office,has met the Obamas, is friends with some of the major contributors etc. I like the MLK museum, I always buy my MLK TShirts there!
there are lots of opportunities in the South (Houston?)- perhaps the Detroitians will move back south. Even the Republican South Carolina Governor is in support of Obama's ' recent speech. I'm still wary of living South of the Maxon- Dixon line

The Governer I find really interesting though is John Patterson, his relationship with Wallace and the ignorance of JFK about the South at the of the time of the Freedom Riders time.

Watching the Freedom Riders, made me realize that it is not Black and White that makes a difference (MLK's role in the freedom riders is somewhat controversial as is the role of the leader of the movement) but how committed you are to fighting for human rights.

Patterson is an Obama supporter, although most had him down as a racist.

I think that Obama may have learned something from Patterson's experiences and knowledge of Southern politics.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1560084046/

It's a great documentary for anyone interested.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1925571160


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