English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Swiss politics/news (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/)
-   -   The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland... (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/110701-proven-disadvantage-foreign-name-switzerland.html)

amogles 06.04.2011 08:48

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwiguy08 (Post 1160007)
In the USA, 16% of the US Congress is a minority while 32% of the country is a minority. I'd say its a good percentage

Que?

Everybody is a minority, everybody is a majority, it's all a question of which hat you choose to wear. A white left-handed homosexual Pagan with Lichtenstein and Moldavian ancestry can choose to identify with being a white male (perceived as a majority), or as a homosexual (minority) or as a .. you get the picture. The more you dig into yourself the more you can find that you either have in common with the majority, ot that makes you a minority.

Likewise, African Americans (for example) may be a minority if you look at the USA as a whole but in many districts they are the majority and in those districts the bias could equally well work the other way disadvantaging a white candidate. Can you still call an African American elected in such a district a minority representative?

CorsebouTheReturn 06.04.2011 09:12

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwiguy08 (Post 1160007)
In the USA, 16% of the US Congress is a minority while 32% of the country is a minority. I'd say its a good percentage

:p
Hilarious really,
Most of you trying to justify something with very accurate arguments and statistics.

So if 32% of "the country is a minority" why they have not all voted for "politicians with the same origin"? I mean if 32% of minority they should be 32% of them in the US Congress, no?


Are they discriminating against some of their own origins?

Or did they made their vote based on different elements?

Let's be fair, I am sure that "some of them" simply voted by seeing the candidates names, like everywhere else in the world.

CorsebouTheReturn 06.04.2011 09:27

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1158799)
The frustrations of some who recognized that they have zero chance to make any political career here are so high that they consider to start a own party for people with an immigration background.

So let's try to move your discussion further-

What's next? They make their own party made of people with immigration background, who would vote for them if "Swiss voters" are discriminating based on names?
So it will be people with an immigration background who would vote for them then?
So basically such sensitive politicians positions will be given to people from an immigration background by people from an immigration background... Is that not some positive discrimination?

How about we do the same to extend those "anti discrimination" actions to other professions?
I mean there's no need to show figures and statistics to prove the disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland (as anywhere else in the world, developed countries such as UK, France, included).

So people with foreign names should help people with foreign name to get a job, a flat to rent, etc...

Looks like an ideal integration model to me :msnsick:

Nil 06.04.2011 09:55

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsebouTheReturn (Post 1160105)
So let's try to move your discussion further-

What's next? They make their own party made of people with immigration background, who would vote for them if "Swiss voters" are discriminating based on names?
So it will be people with an immigration background who would vote for them then?
So basically such sensitive politicians positions will be given to people from an immigration background by people from an immigration background... Is that not some positive discrimination?

How about we do the same to extend those "anti discrimination" actions to other professions?
I mean there's no need to show figures and statistics to prove the disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland (as anywhere else in the world, developed countries such as UK, France, included).

So people with foreign names should help people with foreign name to get a job, a flat to rent, etc...

Looks like an ideal integration model to me :msnsick:

Creating a specific political party for foreigners won't resolve the problem. The population need more education, only this will make things change.

Suisse2008 06.04.2011 10:56

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
I do have my doubts that the Tages-Anzeiger article has proved something is exceptionally wrong with the Swiss. This problem can be found everywhere.

It is true that currently very few Swiss whose heritage is from outside Europe become politicians. In Europe, the UK are the leaders in bringing Africans and Asians into politics. Maybe France next. Germany has produced those two great examples, but really even Germany is still far behind the UK. And the UK itself also knows there is a lot more work to do.

Switzerland won't be bad for too much longer. The signs of the times are seen when Biel elected Lumengo. We will see more second-generation politicians as nationality restrictions are eased and the older racist generation die off.

piazza 06.04.2011 11:21

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
so just swallow your pride and get your name changed.

If your name is Mirovic, change it to Mirovinberger.
If your name is Mbutu change it to Mabutuzinger.
If your name is Cheng change it to Aschenglitzer.
If your name is Jones change it to Joneschert.

Simple ;)

CorsebouTheReturn 06.04.2011 11:21

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Suisse2008 (Post 1160254)
...the older racist generation die off.

So now old are racists...:p

How about we recognize culture, their tradition, etc...?

They have been less influenced by migration let's at least respect that prior to call them "racist".

And instead of calling them "racist" we could start by admiring how they have been protecting their country, cultures and values.

As opposed to some neighboring countries which prostituted themselves in the sake of economy and which are now officially regretting:
-David Cameron "But there must be limits to immigration levels because of the impact on public services, the environment and on "community cohesion", he said."
- Sarkozy: i'm a stupid parasite. oops sorry wrong quote:
Changing the law to protect against abuses by immigrants

Treverus 06.04.2011 11:25

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Suisse2008 (Post 1160254)
I do have my doubts that the Tages-Anzeiger article has proved something is exceptionally wrong with the Swiss. This problem can be found everywhere.

Well, no. There sure is xenophobia everywhere in the world, but voters actively crossing out foreign sounding names from party lists is new to me. Do you have any source that this is happening elsewhere?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Suisse2008 (Post 1160254)
It is true that currently very few Swiss whose heritage is from outside Europe become politicians. In Europe, the UK are the leaders in bringing Africans and Asians into politics. Maybe France next. Germany has produced those two great examples, but really even Germany is still far behind the UK. And the UK itself also knows there is a lot more work to do.

Any source?

I posted the results of a fairly extensive research that is repreated every few years: CH is below EU standards. The UK and Germany are on the same level.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1159080)
In the meantime: Switzerland slides down the list when it comes to the international "integration index": http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Studie-Auslaender-haben-es-schwer-in-der-Schweiz/story/22405899


Quote:

Originally Posted by Suisse2008 (Post 1160254)
Switzerland won't be bad for too much longer. The signs of the times are seen when Biel elected Lumengo. We will see more second-generation politicians as nationality restrictions are eased and the older racist generation die off.

I live here for six years and in that time was my feeling the opposite: the country is not improving, but getting worse for immigrants. It's not only some grumpy old people voting for the strong arguments of the SVP - the opposite actually.

amogles 06.04.2011 11:28

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Suisse2008 (Post 1160254)
It is true that currently very few Swiss whose heritage is from outside Europe become politicians. In Europe, the UK are the leaders in bringing Africans and Asians into politics. Maybe France next. Germany has produced those two great examples, but really even Germany is still far behind the UK. And the UK itself also knows there is a lot more work to do.

I disagree. The Dutch are probably leading in that respect. There are plenty of politicians in all parties with immigrant ancestry. Even Wilders, the leader of the far-right PVV is half Indonesian. That would be like the SVP chosing a non-white leader.

amogles 06.04.2011 11:34

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160288)
I live here for six years and in that time was my feeling the opposite: the country is not improving, but getting worse for immigrants. It's not only some grumpy old people voting for the strong arguments of the SVP - the opposite actually.

I've been here for almost 20 years and I wouldn't say things have got worse, but I would say that things have got more polarised with more people shifting to extreme positions but the average staying the same.

herc82 06.04.2011 11:37

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160288)
Well, no. There sure is xenophobia everywhere in the world, but voters actively crossing out foreign sounding names from party lists is new to me. Do you have any source that this is happening elsewhere?

To panaché (aka cross names, add others) the voting list has always been done here. I would not put a name down that I never heard of and voting along party lines (in this context, the whole list as it is) would be just as stupid...
Why should I not remove the names of the politicians (so called) that I never heard of or read about?
Just because anybody has a foreign sounding name, does not mean they are the better politicians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160288)
I live here for six years and in that time was my feeling the opposite: the country is not improving, but getting worse for immigrants. It's not only some grumpy old people voting for the strong arguments of the SVP - the opposite actually.

Yes, but if you actually put your experience in context, you'd also note that immigration of the foreign workforce has picked up speed, especially in the last five years again, no? I know, it's no honours roll for us Swiss, but reality is not a pony farm and this kind of backlash is not quite unexpected if you know anything about "the Swiss".

Suisse2008 06.04.2011 12:11

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160288)
Well, no. There sure is xenophobia everywhere in the world, but voters actively crossing out foreign sounding names from party lists is new to me. Do you have any source that this is happening elsewhere?

I could also ask if you have a comparative study that uses such a voting system, i.e., does this happen in other countries that uses such lists? My guess is yes because I know that xenophobes are everywhere in the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160288)
I posted the results of a fairly extensive research that is repreated every few years: CH is below EU standards. The UK and Germany are on the same level.

I already agreed that CH is behind so I'm not contradicting the report. CH has always been late. I'm a bit surprised to see the UK not higher, but then these studies never put any error bars or uncertainties to their numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160288)
I live here for six years and in that time was my feeling the opposite: the country is not improving, but getting worse for immigrants. It's not only some grumpy old people voting for the strong arguments of the SVP - the opposite actually.

I've been here over twenty years. Yes, the right wing is getting louder, but I think that is only a reaction to the fact CH is changing! It is becoming more open; it isn't going in the opposite direction. The SVP may get loud, continue to recruit some young people, etc., but this xenophobia strategy is a losing game in the long run.

Treverus 06.04.2011 12:30

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Suisse2008 (Post 1160353)
I could also ask if you have a comparative study that uses such a voting system, i.e., does this happen in other countries that uses such lists? My guess is yes because I know that xenophobes are everywhere in the world.

Germany has a very similar system and I have never heard of a systematic discrimination against foreign names on the lists there. You only research something if you see a need to... and when I have counted votes in my home I hardly have seen any striked through names at all. Herc82 said he finds it normal to strike through names he doesn't know. My experience was the opposite: People voted for a party and only striked out a name if they knew and really do not want that guy. Panachieren was generally not popular at all, kumulieren was: You give the guy you like more votes (in Germany up to three).

If I would agree that it is the same everywhere, I would not have started this thread - I find it extraordinary.

Treverus 06.04.2011 12:35

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1160295)
Even Wilders, the leader of the far-right PVV is half Indonesian. That would be like the SVP chosing a non-white leader.

Common, Wilders is not in any way "colored". He looks "white enough" to me to lead a white supremacists movement:
http://gesamtrechts.files.wordpress....rt-wilders.jpg

I really don't know if we should take him as a good example of second generation half-immigrants.

Guest 06.04.2011 12:38

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
What's this? Conservative mountain-dwelling folk prefer their own kind? People vote according to instinct and prejudice, rather than making rational assessments of the policies proposed by the people for whom they are voting? Bears defecate in the woods? The Pope is a Roman Catholic?

I think I need a sit down.

amogles 06.04.2011 13:19

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160376)
Common, Wilders is not in any way "colored". He looks "white enough" to me to lead a white supremacists movement:
http://gesamtrechts.files.wordpress....rt-wilders.jpg

I really don't know if we should take him as a good example of second generation half-immigrants.

Check his Wikipedia page if you don't believe me:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders

The page says:

Wilders wurde als Sohn eines niederländischen Vaters aus der Limburger Landgemeinde Maasbree und einer in Sukabumi/Niederländisch-Indien[1] geborenen Mutter in Venlo geboren

or read this

http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2350022.ece

and BTW, his hair is not naturally blond, he dyes it.

Treverus 06.04.2011 13:46

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1160424)
Check his Wikipedia page if you don't believe me.

I know. But can we leave Wilders for once out of a thread on Switzerland. Just check all the photos you find of him: Does he look white to you or not? Do you really think he had to suffer from racial discrimination thanks to his skin color when making xenophobic speaches in the Dutch parliament? Your point is absurd.

olygirl 06.04.2011 13:57

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

What's this? Conservative mountain-dwelling folk prefer their own kind? People vote according to instinct and prejudice, rather than making rational assessments of the policies proposed by the people for whom they are voting? Bears defecate in the woods? The Pope is a Roman Catholic?

I think I need a sit down.
I have to agree with this. In the USA, many Mexicans also have a hard time being accepted.

Of course, Mr. Schweiz has also proven to be the exception to the rule although the most popular Mr. Schweiz is still Renzo, the Swiss farm boy.

Suisse2008 06.04.2011 14:33

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

What's this? Conservative mountain-dwelling folk prefer their own kind? People vote according to instinct and prejudice, rather than making rational assessments of the policies proposed by the people for whom they are voting? Bears defecate in the woods? The Pope is a Roman Catholic?

I think I need a sit down.
:D Pretty funny. Well, one could argue that the analysis was done in Zürich, not exactly a mountain canton. But for me this just goes to show that prejudiced people are everywhere whether in Uri, Zürich, city, countryside, DE, NL, UK, US, etc..

But again, I refuse to dwell on the bigotry. CH would not have advanced as far as it has without being open. And it has to open further for its future. Sorry, SVP; just go to hell. :p

amogles 06.04.2011 14:33

Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160463)
I know. But can we leave Wilders for once out of a thread on Switzerland. Just check all the photos you find of him: Does he look white to you or not?.

Like Özdemir then? With skin as white as his I'm sure he's be welcome in the NPD (if only he changed his name to Müller first).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1160463)
Do you really think he had to suffer from racial discrimination thanks to his skin color when making xenophobic speaches in the Dutch parliament? Your point is absurd

Seeing I was trying to make the point that in Holland politcs are colour blind, this statement would seem to bite its own tail, ie, you are implying that to be non-discriminating, people would have to not discrimnate against people they do discriminate against. Achtung, total logic meltdown ahead.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:12.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0