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  #81  
Old 06.04.2011, 15:07
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

"Panschieren" and "kumulieren" are widely used here, especially by the left.

In order to put the article a bit into perspective:

The article mentions that: "In der Altstadt wurde Ökonom Zülfikâr Güzelgün von Platz 3 auf den letzten Platz durchgereicht." which translates roughly to " in the old town (of Zürich) Mr. Güzelgün who was number 3 on the list finished last".

Sounds terrible, I agree. But:

Primo:

1. The two women (with swiss names) who garnered the most votes were incumbents, while Mr. Güzelgün was a first time candidate.
2. One of them is the (co) president of the SP in the city of Zürich and head of campaign management on the national level, while the other one is director of Peace Brigades International Switzerland, has been in the Kantonsrat for 10 years and was a Gemeinderat (city council) before that.

That Mr. Güzelgün lost against these two is certainly sad for him. But I seriously doubt that any social scientist who respects himself would opt for underlying racism when confronted with the task of identifying the most important factor for this result.

Secundo:

1. He finished last on a list of 5 names, not 20 or 30.
2. The two candidates who overtook him are both gemeinderäte.
3. Both of them have held important positions in the SP Stadt Zürich
3. They are: Andrew Katumba and Fiammetta Jahreis (sic).

Mr. Katumba has an Ugandan father, his mother is from the Ukraine. He has been a prominent voice for immigrants (secon@plus etc.) for years etc. etc.


Mrs Jahreiss was born and raised in Italy, was a founding member of SP Migration and has worked until recently as the regional head of a foundation that provides training for migrants etc. etc.


Now, I still believe that there is a bias against people with names ending in -ic and -gül, even on the left and especially if the person is not that well known and a first time candidate.

But I do believe that the conclusions drawn in the article are way over the top.
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  #82  
Old 06.04.2011, 15:10
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Mr. Katumba has an Ugandan father, his mother is from the Ukraine. He has been a prominent voice for immigrants (secon@plus etc.) for years etc. etc.
also famous for his use of the N word on campaign material some years ago.
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  #83  
Old 06.04.2011, 15:17
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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also famous for his use of the N word on campaign material some years ago.
He used it to counter the SVPs "Wir schweizer sind immer die N." in an ironic way, by saying that if this claim is true, then it would be "about time to elect a real one". While campaigning for the national council on the second@plus list...

Here he is


Last edited by SamWeiseVielleicht; 06.04.2011 at 15:31. Reason: Deleting a possibly offending word
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  #84  
Old 18.05.2011, 17:30
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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That article is a bit simplistic.

1. Lumengo did break the law. He claims that he only wanted to "help" others to fill out their election forms, but I cannot believe him that a democratic politician did not have the slightest clue that this might be wrong...

2. Blocher aparently tried to vote twice in a Parliamentary vote, that's something a bit less drastic than filling out many voting forms.

3. Other politicians who did the same as Lumengo got a similar punishment.

4. Lumengo is a SP candidate. Social democrats value certain democratic rules a bit higher than other parties do - so yes, I find it completely ok that the party asked him to either step down or leave the party. That he decided to leave the party says a lot about his values...
The Bern supreme court declared Lumengo innocent from electoral fraud.
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Old 18.05.2011, 17:36
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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The Bern supreme court declared Lumengo innocent from electoral fraud.
I'm not sure what to make of this. So the court says that filling in other people's ballots papers is not electoral fraud? Sounds like a very thin line to me.

Either way, he remains a liability and will have to work hard to restore public confidence if he wants to continue with his career in politics.
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  #86  
Old 18.05.2011, 17:41
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

It means that the definition of "electoral fraud" is something quite vague.
The fact that he did not put the bulletin in the envelope and not use the voter's card was enough for the supreme court.
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Old 18.05.2011, 17:44
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I'm not sure what to make of this. So the court says that filling in other people's ballots papers is not electoral fraud? Sounds like a very thin line to me.

Either way, he remains a liability and will have to work hard to restore public confidence if he wants to continue with his career in politics.

Woolishofener has admitted quite candidly that his mum and aunts give him their voting papers to use. This is NOT uncommon here in CH, especially in rural areas- so many men get 2, 3 4 or more votes. Surely that is fraud too.
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Old 18.05.2011, 17:47
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Woolishofener has admitted quite candidly that his mum and aunts give him their voting papers to use. This is NOT uncommon here in CH, especially in rural areas- so many men get 2, 3 4 or more votes. Surely that is fraud too.
You mean that they give away their vote or they let somebody else fill the papers because they do not feel savvy enough? There is a slight difference I think...

Oh yes, and it must be only men that do this
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  #89  
Old 18.05.2011, 17:50
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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You mean that they give away their vote or they let somebody else fill the papers because they do not feel savvy enough? There is a slight difference I think...

Oh yes, and it must be only men that do this
you have 2 envelopes:
- one that contains your vote and can be given sealed
- one that has your name/address on it

you have to put the 2 in different boxes. It's clear that someone could exchange the first envelope to change the vote....but i assume probity is part of Wolli's values.
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  #90  
Old 18.05.2011, 23:43
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Woolishofener has admitted quite candidly that his mum and aunts give him their voting papers to use. This is NOT uncommon here in CH, especially in rural areas- so many men get 2, 3 4 or more votes. Surely that is fraud too.
No fraud at all as you REPRESENT your relatives in a most decent way, so that their voting power does not get lost. This is perfectly LEGAL and absolutely above board True, it makes you a "Multiple voter" !
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Old 18.05.2011, 23:46
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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you have 2 envelopes:
- one that contains your vote and can be given sealed
- one that has your name/address on it

you have to put the 2 in different boxes. It's clear that someone could exchange the first envelope to change the vote....but i assume probity is part of Wolli's values.
NO, when sending in the vote, you only have ONE SINGLE envelope. The cover sheet with the signature is inside the major envelope on top and the small envelope inside the major envelope contains your actual voting papers
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Old 18.05.2011, 23:53
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I worked with a very Swiss Serbian before who told me how hard it is to find a job if your name ends with "-ic" here. I believed him, but found this article still quite surprising:
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/zuerich/...story/29657249

For those who do not know the Swiss voting system: You get long lists with the candidates of each party. You can simply make a cross at the top of the list to vote for one party. But you can also cumulate votes - ginving a candidate two votes - or strike through a name you do not like to not give him a vote. I counted votes in Germany in a very similar system before and I can tell you that it is a pain to count the votes of somebody who really wants to use all the possibilities he has... anyhow: In the Zurich cantonal elections of last weekend, all candidates with a foreign sounding name lost significantly. If enough people strike through your name you will get less votes than the ones below you on the list. At the end, every candidate gets his votes counted and if a party gets x seats in the parliament, the top x candidates by votes will get the seat. People with an immigration background were explicitedly "downvoted" from the lists while the parties apparently believed them to be competent enough to give them good starting positions. This would of course not surprise in the case of the SVP, but it was the case for every single party in Switzerland!

The frustrations of some who recognized that they have zero chance to make any political career here are so high that they consider to start a own party for people with an immigration background. They claim that the parties cash in on the votes of their minorities, but through the down voting do not need to give anything back to them...

Wouldn't it be 'democratic' to vote for the candidate you desire??!? that's like saying that ugly candidates do not stand a chance to get elected
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  #93  
Old 19.05.2011, 00:01
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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No fraud at all as you REPRESENT your relatives in a most decent way, so that their voting power does not get lost. This is perfectly LEGAL and absolutely above board True, it makes you a "Multiple voter" !
Did that before I was Swiss. Wife didn't know/care how to vote, so I filled them in, and we went together to vote.

Now that I'm widowed, with a Swiss girlfriend and two adult daughters, I get FOUR votes!

Tom
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  #94  
Old 19.05.2011, 00:26
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

Meanwhile, my girlfriend has a decidedly NON-Swiss surname (Polish, in fact), but other than having trouble spelling it, no-one has ever questioned it as being Swiss (OK, her great grandfather came here in the 1860s, and her father was a famous Swiss artist).

Tom
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Old 19.05.2011, 00:40
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Wouldn't it be 'democratic' to vote for the candidate you desire??!? that's like saying that ugly candidates do not stand a chance to get elected
? And your point is? The system is surely democratic. Very much so. That's actually the point: Swiss voters from left to right vote for their candidates, but actively strike through the foreign sounding names. No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians. At least on the political left is that a surprise for me and I am sure you will have a hard time finding scientific data supporting your ugliness argument. After all is Calmy-Rey even a Bundesrat...

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Old 19.05.2011, 00:58
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Meanwhile, my girlfriend has a decidedly NON-Swiss surname (Polish, in fact), but other than having trouble spelling it, no-one has ever questioned it as being Swiss (OK, her great grandfather came here in the 1860s, and her father was a famous Swiss artist).

Tom
Swarovski is a very good ZüRICH name as is Schawinski and Schmuklerski
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Old 19.05.2011, 01:01
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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? And your point is? The system is surely democratic. Very much so. That's actually the point: Swiss voters from left to right vote for their candidates, but actively strike through the foreign sounding names. No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians. At least on the political left is that a surprise for me and I am sure you will have a hard time finding scientific data supporting your ugliness argument. After all is Calmy-Rey even a Bundesrat...

Explains why the Abdel-Aziz family in recent elections in Opfikon-Glattbrugg moved, together with people with Italian and ex-Yugo...- names into the city-parliament
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Old 19.05.2011, 08:49
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Swarovski is a very good ZüRICH name as is Schawinski and Schmuklerski
I've met Roger Schawinski (he speaks excellent English), as we did the matrix/mixers for his Radio 1.

Tom
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Old 19.05.2011, 09:17
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Switzerland won't be bad for too much longer. The signs of the times are seen when Biel elected Lumengo.
Whoa, that turned out incredibly well. Well done.
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Old 19.05.2011, 09:28
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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No fraud at all as you REPRESENT your relatives in a most decent way, so that their voting power does not get lost. This is perfectly LEGAL and absolutely above board True, it makes you a "Multiple voter" !
Well yes... however wouldn't be true to say that it is mainly men who get those multiple family votes. What happens to the basic democratic principle to
1 human = 1 vote. And yes, women who 'give' away their voting rights to their men, be they their husband, son, etc - have only got themselves to blame. Imho, this multiple voting by the back door should not be allowed. Amazing really- and I must say I am proud to have been raised by a woman who took real interest in what was happening around her, and wouldn't have ever 'given HER vote' to anybody. Quite shocking that some women still feel that they should do that - btw have you ever heard of a man giving his vote to his wife and daughters? Of course in the UK, this practice was investigated as abuses of this type were found in some of the Asian communities. To condone this multiple votes is totally un-democratic imho. Sorry Wooli- nothing personal here, just the principle at stake. If this practice is commonplace in some areas of CH, I suspect rural mainly- then this loophole should be closed.

It is a very interesting issue, one I'd never thought possible before. I shall contact local politicians and discuss this with them. It would be worth some proper investigating- perhaps the Press would be interested in taking that on. I can feel a documentary coming on.

Last edited by Odile; 19.05.2011 at 11:13.
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