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  #101  
Old 19.05.2011, 10:03
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Explains why the Abdel-Aziz family in recent elections in Opfikon-Glattbrugg moved, together with people with Italian and ex-Yugo...- names into the city-parliament
Just because you find examples of foreign sounding names in politics does not at all proof the article in the original post wrong.

Why does every thread turn into a dump after like three pages? There were some fairly serious points in the original topic and in the end we always have some one-line sweeping statements...
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  #102  
Old 19.05.2011, 11:06
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Just because you find examples of foreign sounding names in politics does not at all proof the article in the original post wrong.
As we discussed in the homeopathy thread, anecdotal examples do not constitute scientific evidence.

The orgiinal article argued with examples. The counter example also produces examples. As long as we don't see some serious statistics with a sample size that is statistically relevant and that furthermore corrects for other factors that may cause people to cross candidates out, we are still just pissing in the wind and this whole thread is just discussing a non factoid.
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  #103  
Old 19.05.2011, 13:17
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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? And your point is? The system is surely democratic. Very much so. That's actually the point: Swiss voters from left to right vote for their candidates, but actively strike through the foreign sounding names. No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians. At least on the political left is that a surprise for me and I am sure you will have a hard time finding scientific data supporting your ugliness argument. After all is Calmy-Rey even a Bundesrat...

My point is that you can't force people into diversifying?! their votes simply to be politically correct...that alone beats the purpose of voting.
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  #104  
Old 19.05.2011, 14:37
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.
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  #105  
Old 19.05.2011, 15:00
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.
Given that Sikhs and Muslims are not part of the traditional European setting, I believe that it has done pretty darn well so far.
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  #106  
Old 19.05.2011, 23:31
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I've met Roger Schawinski (he speaks excellent English), as we did the matrix/mixers for his Radio 1.

Tom
I would have expected it to be so, as he studied at a university in Chicago
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  #107  
Old 19.05.2011, 23:34
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Well yes... however wouldn't be true to say that it is mainly men who get those multiple family votes. What happens to the basic democratic principle to
1 human = 1 vote. And yes, women who 'give' away their voting rights to their men, be they their husband, son, etc - have only got themselves to blame. Imho, this multiple voting by the back door should not be allowed. Amazing really- and I must say I am proud to have been raised by a woman who took real interest in what was happening around her, and wouldn't have ever 'given HER vote' to anybody. Quite shocking that some women still feel that they should do that - btw have you ever heard of a man giving his vote to his wife and daughters? Of course in the UK, this practice was investigated as abuses of this type were found in some of the Asian communities. To condone this multiple votes is totally un-democratic imho. Sorry Wooli- nothing personal here, just the principle at stake. If this practice is commonplace in some areas of CH, I suspect rural mainly- then this loophole should be closed.

It is a very interesting issue, one I'd never thought possible before. I shall contact local politicians and discuss this with them. It would be worth some proper investigating- perhaps the Press would be interested in taking that on. I can feel a documentary coming on.
You of course need to have the signature of the "owner" on the cover-sheet, as it is THEIR vote
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  #108  
Old 19.05.2011, 23:40
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Just because you find examples of foreign sounding names in politics does not at all proof the article in the original post wrong.

Why does every thread turn into a dump after like three pages? There were some fairly serious points in the original topic and in the end we always have some one-line sweeping statements...

The OP was right and wrong at very much the same time. People with names from former Yugoslavia have it clearly more difficult to get elected than others, for example. But not THAT much more difficult. And it gradually will even become an advantage. Why ? Because it is now long enough ago since so many Kosovari and other ex-Yugoslavs fled to CH that they now can and will become CH citizens. And they when voting will find names known from the the old home-country sympathetic .
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  #109  
Old 19.05.2011, 23:45
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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As we discussed in the homeopathy thread, anecdotal examples do not constitute scientific evidence.

The orgiinal article argued with examples. The counter example also produces examples. As long as we don't see some serious statistics with a sample size that is statistically relevant and that furthermore corrects for other factors that may cause people to cross candidates out, we are still just pissing in the wind and this whole thread is just discussing a non factoid.
Even the best statistics would be contradictory in a way. That "certain" names are negative in an election is self-evident and not disputed, but it cannot be taken as a rule.

Add to this that quite a lot depends on WHERE you are located. A person with a "foreign-sounding and exotic" name in a remote village will only have a very small chance to succeed, while such a person in Zurich and outer suburbs has practically the same chance than a local.
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  #110  
Old 19.05.2011, 23:53
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.
Well, Switzerland twice had a Jewish Federal President, France has a Habsburger of Hungarian-Austrian origin as state president. Zurich has a Lesbian City President. Berlin and Paris have gay City Presidents. In national and regional and municipal parliaments, the share of people with "outside origin" is increasing. So that it is only a question of WHEN and WHERE there will be a Head of State or Head of Government of NON-European origin. It may be a "long way" or a "very long way" or a "fairly short way" to go, but things in general are on their way.
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  #111  
Old 20.05.2011, 01:12
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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No matter what party the vote for, there is statistical proof that they want to avoid foreign born politicians.
That of course, cannot be deducted by a short article in a newspaper that in the same article mentions several contradicting cases. Not exactly statistical proof let alone a solid conclusion.
So we know that in a very small sample some politicians with foreign sounding names did not get good results, while some politicians with foreign names did. And from that we deduct that Swiss are racist and xenophobic across all political parties? Seriously?
Is it maybe possible that some of the politicians with foreign sounding names were actually foreign (as in, not Swiss) before long and that they simply aren't as acquainted with Swiss local politics or known among the electorate? Or is it possible, maybe, that the SP actively tries to make their politicians more diverse than their electorate really are? (It's not exactly working class people that vote for SP nowadays) Let us suppose that the SP favors party members with foreign backgrounds, which backfires at the elections because people simply don't know them? I am only speculating here of course, but this simple conclusion without any analysis seems rather silly to me. A tiny bit of research (length of party membership for example) would be great imho. If you look at overall party membership and local politicians in Switzerland the only group that is "discriminated" if you want, are Swiss men without foreign backgrounds as they form by far the largest group of politicians in CH but are underrepresented in federal and cantonal parliaments and in the federal council (despite still forming the majority :-) ). I have no problem with that, but I certainly wouldn't cry foul without looking at backgrounds and facts first. Only a second article by the Tagesanzeiger for example mentioned that many Swiss names were crossed out as well, it's just a common thing to do, omitting this fact is almost deliberate deceit. Now mind, as I have mentioned in other threads, I don't deny at all that people with foreign sounding names have it harder in CH in many aspects, probably also politics. But I am very careful with such quick conclusions, and the Tagesanzeiger backtracked for a reason.
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  #112  
Old 21.05.2011, 05:05
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Yes, but what percentage of African Americans voted for him? I heard it was well over 80%. So people do still vote according to colour. A Black being elected doesn't prove that integration is working. It proves that the racial mix of the country is changing. I'll only believe that integration works when I see a member of a very small minority elected.

If blacks had voted for Obama at the level they did for Clinton (from the same party, most blacks are democrat and vote that way regardless of the race of the candidate) Obama still would have won. Obama got 2/3 of the Latino vote, and more of the white vote than Bill Clinton (who never got a majority of the white vote either). I believe most white women voted for Obama, but not men...don't quote me on the very last sentence.




Still, you can look at the governors of South Carolina (Nikki Randhawa Haley) and Louisiana (Bobby Jindal). They are both Indian American, children of Indian immigrants, one from Southern India, one from Northern India. If you look at the demographics of either state, you will see Indians are not even 5% and they are both Republican, so voted in by a white majority. Blacks definitely would not vote for a Republican in the south in mass.

So did integration work?

I don't believe there is any Bundesland in Germany or Swiss Canton headed by a second generation immigrant...especially not a visible minority.

Last edited by AmericanGotWorkVisa; 21.05.2011 at 05:12. Reason: added wiki link
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  #113  
Old 21.05.2011, 08:07
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Given that Sikhs and Muslims are not part of the traditional European setting, I believe that it has done pretty darn well so far.
Yeah....sure. I noticed you ignored the Italian woman. Maybe they have done darn well as well in the european political system ? or are they a rare species too ?
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  #114  
Old 21.05.2011, 10:49
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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If blacks had voted for Obama at the level they did for Clinton (from the same party, most blacks are democrat and vote that way regardless of the race of the candidate) Obama still would have won. Obama got 2/3 of the Latino vote, and more of the white vote than Bill Clinton (who never got a majority of the white vote either). I believe most white women voted for Obama, but not men...don't quote me on the very last sentence.




Still, you can look at the governors of South Carolina (Nikki Randhawa Haley) and Louisiana (Bobby Jindal). They are both Indian American, children of Indian immigrants, one from Southern India, one from Northern India. If you look at the demographics of either state, you will see Indians are not even 5% and they are both Republican, so voted in by a white majority. Blacks definitely would not vote for a Republican in the south in mass.

So did integration work?

I don't believe there is any Bundesland in Germany or Swiss Canton headed by a second generation immigrant...especially not a visible minority.


A) let's first have a look at Louisiana and South Carolina. Both have a black population share of 30%, and as even a "dark white" gets more acceptance among blacks than among "fellow" whites, it is obvious that the Blacks in both states most presumably DID give the two exIndia Secondos their vote by a heavy margin. To give an example, Nader whenever being a candidate for anything got support from the Blacks, in spite of him being clearly white.

B) In German speaking Switzerland, also Ticinesi and Italians are perceived as immigrants, and their Secondos know it, and the Secondos born before 1960 can still only too well remember the times when THEY were victim of xenophobia. If you now see how many people of It/TI origin ARE in governmental functions all around, then THIS IS integration.

C) In Germany, you can see Secondos of Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and most of all TURKISH origin in parliaments of Bundesländer and the Union, so that it only is a matter of a few years until one of the Prime Ministers will be a Secondo

D) France already now has City Presidents of Black, of Italian and of Arab origin

C) MLK Memorial. I gave a visit to the original location in 1982, and then in 1997 twice to the splendid new location. A small Museum, sure (not the Metropolitan or Smithsonian ) but a very nice place. To be highly recommended. What irritated me was the (NOT total !) absence of Whites. I spoke with the cashier of the Souvenir Shop and told her that I thought this to be shabby. She comforted me and told me "look you have to give them time. it will take another decade or two" . I hope the picture in the meantime has changed, changed towards a "rainbow coalition" .
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  #115  
Old 21.05.2011, 10:58
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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Yeah....sure. I noticed you ignored the Italian woman. Maybe they have done darn well as well in the european political system ? or are they a rare species too ?
The "Italian women" happens to be the daughter-in-law of Indira Ghandi, one of the greatest Indian Prime Ministers, AND the grand-daughter-in-law of Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, the man who actually built up (on the basis of Mahatma Ghandi) modern India. And so, in a country which in regard to ethnical structure ranges from White to dark Black, by geography from the highest mountains on earth to the lowest-lying tropical jungles on earth (and in between some deserts), she is not so much outside the main picture as you possibly imply
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  #116  
Old 21.05.2011, 11:15
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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In 2007, India (the world's largest democracy) had:

-A Muslim President
-A Sikh prime minister
-An Italian woman as head of the largest political party (Congress-I)

In 2011, only the first bullet has changed into a Hindu woman as president but other 2 remain the same.

This in a country where Hindus represent the majority and are 80% of the population.

Lets admit the facts. Europeans still have a long way to go to achieve true multiculturism in politics.
And a muslim president that half the country would not be able to name either. Come to think of it, i don't remember India's Vice-President's name either...
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  #117  
Old 21.05.2011, 14:06
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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A) let's first have a look at Louisiana and South Carolina. Both have a black population share of 30%, and as even a "dark white" gets more acceptance among blacks than among "fellow" whites, it is obvious that the Blacks in both states most presumably DID give the two exIndia Secondos their vote by a heavy margin. To give an example, Nader whenever being a candidate for anything got support from the Blacks, in spite of him being clearly white.

B) In German speaking Switzerland, also Ticinesi and Italians are perceived as immigrants, and their Secondos know it, and the Secondos born before 1960 can still only too well remember the times when THEY were victim of xenophobia. If you now see how many people of It/TI origin ARE in governmental functions all around, then THIS IS integration.

C) In Germany, you can see Secondos of Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and most of all TURKISH origin in parliaments of Bundesländer and the Union, so that it only is a matter of a few years until one of the Prime Ministers will be a Secondo

D) France already now has City Presidents of Black, of Italian and of Arab origin

C) MLK Memorial. I gave a visit to the original location in 1982, and then in 1997 twice to the splendid new location. A small Museum, sure (not the Metropolitan or Smithsonian ) but a very nice place. To be highly recommended. What irritated me was the (NOT total !) absence of Whites. I spoke with the cashier of the Souvenir Shop and told her that I thought this to be shabby. She comforted me and told me "look you have to give them time. it will take another decade or two" . I hope the picture in the meantime has changed, changed towards a "rainbow coalition" .
I could care less about the MLK museum to be honest they are building an American American Smithsonian that will be completed in about 3 or 4 years.


As far as your #1, that is wrong. I am sorry, but I'm not sure you know much about Southern politics or racial politics in America at all.

In the South of America, at a state level, the more blacks that are in the state the more whites vote Republican. Politics has been more racialized in the South than anywhere else for historic reasons and still is. But it is not racialized in the way you stated, it is the reverse. I've lived half my life in "the South".

That is not my opinion that comes from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/op...1schaller.html

The race of the candidate, at least for blacks is unimportant in the South, blacks almost always vote in mass for white governors in the South, but they usually have to be Democrat. They might vote a little more (higher turnout) for a black candidate. Haley and Jindal are Republican and not black.

Nadar? Come on. Nadar is a far left liberal and rarely gets than 2% of the black vote nationwide when he runs for president. The only reason he gets that is because he is a far left liberal. Most people in America see Arab Nadar as a white man, I bet most people don't even know he is an Arab. He is no less white than many "Italians" we have running for office in this country, trust me he is not treated like the average Saudi. LOL Nadar being a non-Muslim name and the fact he looks like a Southern European, he just does not stand out.

Who told you "dark whites" get more respect with blacks? Based on what? Besides Italian mafia movies, I've never heard such a thing, and I've been black all my life, mostly in America, and I've lived in 3 states, and been to at least half the states in the country.

In the governors race, you have it opposite. It is more the fact whites in the South are more likely to vote for a non-black minority, than a black due to historic reason, their racism is specific, not broad.



As far as those elections specifically, lets look at Jindal's election, he only got 10% of the black vote, which is not shocking, nationwide for Presidential elections REpublicans usually get about 10-15% of the black vote, that would include George W. Bush, George HW Bush, etc.

http://www.nola.com/elections/index....sters_sta.html

In fact there was low black voter turn out that year as the article says, meaning they were excited to vote for the Democrat or Republican.

Jindal being of Indian ethnicity did not help him with blacks, it seemed to help him no more than being a white Republican.
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  #118  
Old 21.05.2011, 16:40
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I could care less about the MLK museum to be honest they are building an American American Smithsonian that will be completed in about 3 or 4 years.


As far as your #1, that is wrong. I am sorry, but I'm not sure you know much about Southern politics or racial politics in America at all.

In the South of America, at a state level, the more blacks that are in the state the more whites vote Republican. Politics has been more racialized in the South than anywhere else for historic reasons and still is. But it is not racialized in the way you stated, it is the reverse. I've lived half my life in "the South".

That is not my opinion that comes from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/op...1schaller.html

The race of the candidate, at least for blacks is unimportant in the South, blacks almost always vote in mass for white governors in the South, but they usually have to be Democrat. They might vote a little more (higher turnout) for a black candidate. Haley and Jindal are Republican and not black.

Nadar? Come on. Nadar is a far left liberal and rarely gets than 2% of the black vote nationwide when he runs for president. The only reason he gets that is because he is a far left liberal. Most people in America see Arab Nadar as a white man, I bet most people don't even know he is an Arab. He is no less white than many "Italians" we have running for office in this country, trust me he is not treated like the average Saudi. LOL Nadar being a non-Muslim name and the fact he looks like a Southern European, he just does not stand out.

Who told you "dark whites" get more respect with blacks? Based on what? Besides Italian mafia movies, I've never heard such a thing, and I've been black all my life, mostly in America, and I've lived in 3 states, and been to at least half the states in the country.

In the governors race, you have it opposite. It is more the fact whites in the South are more likely to vote for a non-black minority, than a black due to historic reason, their racism is specific, not broad.



As far as those elections specifically, lets look at Jindal's election, he only got 10% of the black vote, which is not shocking, nationwide for Presidential elections REpublicans usually get about 10-15% of the black vote, that would include George W. Bush, George HW Bush, etc.

http://www.nola.com/elections/index....sters_sta.html

In fact there was low black voter turn out that year as the article says, meaning they were excited to vote for the Democrat or Republican.

Jindal being of Indian ethnicity did not help him with blacks, it seemed to help him no more than being a white Republican.
What do I know about racism in the Deep South. Answer :
a lot & nothing ! What do I mean by that ? I have relatives in Texas and Louisiana and paid four extensive visits to the area (incl Georgia and South Carolina) but never lived there. Some, particular older ones regretfully ARE racists, in spite of otherwise being nice and hospitable, which at times can be rather depressing. With the NON- or anti-racist, I had many discussions until 2 or 3 am, got a lot of input but also a bit of confusion. Much of what I stated above is not "scientific" but personal impression.

Nadir is an Arab name (Christian AND Muslim) and that he is a White is logical as Arabs around the Med are generally as "White" as those on the northern side.
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  #119  
Old 21.05.2011, 18:50
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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And a muslim president that half the country would not be able to name either. Come to think of it, i don't remember India's Vice-President's name either...
you are wrong my friend.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam is actually a legend and the man behind India's space and ballistic missile development program
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Old 21.05.2011, 22:42
hoppy
 
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Re: The proven disadvantage of a foreign name in Switzerland...

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I could care less about the MLK museum to be honest they are building an American American Smithsonian that will be completed in about 3 or 4 years.


As far as your #1, that is wrong. I am sorry, but I'm not sure you know much about Southern politics or racial politics in America at all.

In the South of America, at a state level, the more blacks that are in the state the more whites vote Republican. Politics has been more racialized in the South than anywhere else for historic reasons and still is. But it is not racialized in the way you stated, it is the reverse. I've lived half my life in "the South".

That is not my opinion that comes from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/op...1schaller.html

The race of the candidate, at least for blacks is unimportant in the South, blacks almost always vote in mass for white governors in the South, but they usually have to be Democrat. They might vote a little more (higher turnout) for a black candidate. Haley and Jindal are Republican and not black.

Nadar? Come on. Nadar is a far left liberal and rarely gets than 2% of the black vote nationwide when he runs for president. The only reason he gets that is because he is a far left liberal. Most people in America see Arab Nadar as a white man, I bet most people don't even know he is an Arab. He is no less white than many "Italians" we have running for office in this country, trust me he is not treated like the average Saudi. LOL Nadar being a non-Muslim name and the fact he looks like a Southern European, he just does not stand out.

Who told you "dark whites" get more respect with blacks? Based on what? Besides Italian mafia movies, I've never heard such a thing, and I've been black all my life, mostly in America, and I've lived in 3 states, and been to at least half the states in the country.

In the governors race, you have it opposite. It is more the fact whites in the South are more likely to vote for a non-black minority, than a black due to historic reason, their racism is specific, not broad.



As far as those elections specifically, lets look at Jindal's election, he only got 10% of the black vote, which is not shocking, nationwide for Presidential elections REpublicans usually get about 10-15% of the black vote, that would include George W. Bush, George HW Bush, etc.

http://www.nola.com/elections/index....sters_sta.html

In fact there was low black voter turn out that year as the article says, meaning they were excited to vote for the Democrat or Republican.

Jindal being of Indian ethnicity did not help him with blacks, it seemed to help him no more than being a white Republican.
I am only just beginning to understand it. My sister has been in the South for about 30 years and is involved in politics, set up a regional Obama office,has met the Obamas, is friends with some of the major contributors etc. I like the MLK museum, I always buy my MLK TShirts there!
there are lots of opportunities in the South (Houston?)- perhaps the Detroitians will move back south. Even the Republican South Carolina Governor is in support of Obama's ' recent speech. I'm still wary of living South of the Maxon- Dixon line

The Governer I find really interesting though is John Patterson, his relationship with Wallace and the ignorance of JFK about the South at the of the time of the Freedom Riders time.

Watching the Freedom Riders, made me realize that it is not Black and White that makes a difference (MLK's role in the freedom riders is somewhat controversial as is the role of the leader of the movement) but how committed you are to fighting for human rights.

Patterson is an Obama supporter, although most had him down as a racist.

I think that Obama may have learned something from Patterson's experiences and knowledge of Southern politics.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1560084046/

It's a great documentary for anyone interested.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1925571160
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