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  #21  
Old 02.05.2011, 13:34
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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I wish it was them! I think it was the unfamiliarity with my hotel bed. Today I do some exploring and maybe see Montreal. (Pardon, but I don't know how to type accents on my iPad.)
Have fun "Moreal " is a great city
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Old 02.05.2011, 13:53
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

Just give each kindergarten a little wooden board with "SN" etched on it.

Soon have the little blighters talking proper.
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  #23  
Old 02.05.2011, 13:57
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Just give each kindergarten a little wooden board with "SN" etched on it.

Soon have the little blighters talking proper.
"SN" Please tell me the meaning
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  #24  
Old 02.05.2011, 14:02
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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It's not really a dialect when several million people speak it, is it ?.
For one simple reason most linguists would consider Swiss German a collection of dialects and not languages. And that is, there is an insignificantly small amount of literature written in these dialects. As consequence of not having a standardized written form there are no newspapers or magazines. The only written form of the dialect that we are occaisionally exposed to is a humorous use of it in advertising. For example Denner's use of "Was susch" for their coffee capsules ("What else"), which could be "Was suscht" depending on where you are from.

Curious fact: The hottest love letters between Swiss German speakers are generally written in High German with an occasional dialect word thrown it to personalize it.

Last edited by Küsnacht; 02.05.2011 at 16:33. Reason: correction
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Old 02.05.2011, 14:02
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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"SN" Please tell me the meaning
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  #26  
Old 02.05.2011, 20:48
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Please dear people from Switzerland: do agree on a standard swiss german, develop basic grammar rules and literary language and disburden yourself from having to use high german.
NO

why ?

A) the various dialects may have Alemannic communalities, but are very different, and cannot be "standardized"
B) much of the culture in German speaking Switzerland is German. Imagine that even "Wilhelm Tell" was written by a German. That Swiss culture people had their real success in Germany over centuries. That the best pieces of poetry around are of course in Standard German and not in dialect
C) many Swiss newspapers and magazines have most of their sales in Germany, that Swiss TV and radio stations have many listeners in Germany

No, you misinterpret something here quite heavily
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Old 02.05.2011, 20:51
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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It is part of the issue because this vote would not be necessary if the Swiss would use a standard swiss german for official purposes and dialect swiss german for interaction with friends and family. Standard german seems to be a red rag to many here.

If it's a cantonal kindergarten (just like a cantonal school) the official state language should be spoken which is standard german. The canton doesn't tell you how you should speak to one another at home in a private setting.
Rubbish! Nobody would want to use such an artificial "language" !
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  #28  
Old 02.05.2011, 21:00
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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i thought it was only the "formal" classroom subjects that would be taught in high German and stuff like art, sports and extra curricular activities would remain in Swiss German. Maybe I misunderstood the initiative?
The initiative is only about KINDERGARTEN, not about school. According to the latest directives in the Canton of Zurich, in school, all "formal" subjects including arts, are to be handled in Standard German. Sports can be given in dialect. The idea is that to start with Standard German in 1st class is early enough.

I support this idea, whenever remembering quite well that I profited from Standard German being THE thing, as I from the end of 1st class until the end of school (KV included) was Nr.1 in class in regard to German.
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Old 02.05.2011, 21:08
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Explain Pl.
The "Northern Netherlands" united the various German dialects of the area into the "Holland" (North Holland / South Holland) dominated Dutch language. The Flemish of Belgium soundwise in fact is far closer to German than Dutch, in spite of the similiarities.
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Old 02.05.2011, 21:50
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Voting time again in Zürich May 15, 2011. Although there are seven initiatives packed into this month's bundle of electoral paperwork, the issue that gets my goat is the arrogance of the ZH Kantonsrat in not accepting the continuation of the Swiss German dialect in the Canton's Kindergartens. Although regular German is a mainstay of schools from grade 1 through to 9, it has never been the mainstay language for the younger kiddies (ages 4 to 6).

So now the Kantonsrat is trying to push Swiss German (Mundart) out of the Kindergartens in some sort of early career enhancing attempt to breed a generation of young professionals able to master full German earlier than when they start learning it from grade one onwards.

I know where my vote is headed May 15, one big fat yes vote to keep Mundart in the Kindergartens. "Hey Canton, leave them kids alone", doing what they do best, learning by playing, interacting with other kids, using the language that they speak at home and will no doubt be using more than any other in the rest of their daily lives. Bureaucratic suppression of our mother tongue smacks of state interference and a denial of our democratic rights.

http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/zueric...1.5243532.html

The Regierungsrat has come up with an alternative if the "Yes to Mundart" is accepted which foresees a third of the Kindergarten time spoken in normal German with dialect during the balance.

Ihr wüssed was s'mache isch am 15te....
totally agree...kindergarten (in general) shall not enforce things, it should be fun and relaxing...even though im not Swiss and will never be, it's really funny hearing my son speaking fluent swiss german while I'm stuck with my swiss-high-german-freaking-mix...
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Old 02.05.2011, 22:08
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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NO

why ?

A) the various dialects may have Alemannic communalities, but are very different, and cannot be "standardized"
B) much of the culture in German speaking Switzerland is German. Imagine that even "Wilhelm Tell" was written by a German. That Swiss culture people had their real success in Germany over centuries. That the best pieces of poetry around are of course in Standard German and not in dialect
C) many Swiss newspapers and magazines have most of their sales in Germany, that Swiss TV and radio stations have many listeners in Germany

No, you misinterpret something here quite heavily
There haven't been any outstanding swiss writers since Frisch and Dürrenmatt died 20 years ago. I think this happens when the spoken language and written language in a country are different from another. Therefore my suggestion to standardize swiss german.
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Old 02.05.2011, 22:11
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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The "Northern Netherlands" united the various German dialects of the area into the "Holland" (North Holland / South Holland) dominated Dutch language. The Flemish of Belgium soundwise in fact is far closer to German than Dutch, in spite of the similiarities.
It is not as simple as that. And I wouldn't say Flemish is far closer to German than Dutch...

For many decades it has been assumed that Dutch spoken in the Netherlands was correct Dutch, or we could say, in comparison with High German and Swiss German, it was High Dutch. It was probably a lot more stable as a language because of historical reasons, as the Flemish remained more time under foreign influence. The Flemish spoke some Flemish Dutch dialects. And these dialects were, as all dialects are, very regional, one could say in some cases very hard to understand when a 'stranger'. However, there were and still are also dialects in the Netherlands.

The Flemish have defended their Dutch language and made efforts to develop a standard 'Flemish Dutch' language from the 1960-ies onwards. It was in fact proper 'Dutch' which was promoted, as the grammar and vocabulary is identical to High Dutch. In pronouncing however, the Flemish do not imitate the High Dutch way of pronouncing.
We had, when I was at school in the 60'ies in Brugge, a daily 5 minutes evening program on TV on how to say things in proper Dutch, which we were asked to follow by our teachers.

Over the years, collaboration between the linguistic organisms of the Netherlands and Belgium has been developed and the 'linguistic steering' of the language is now assured by a binational committee.

Although dialects are still alive, I don't think Flemish people are ashamed or annoyed to tell their mother tongue is - simply- Dutch. It is a general public notion that Dutch covers the Netherlands and Flanders for all of us. You wouldn't find this kind of Swiss German pride in such a general way.
My mother tongue is Dutch. I never specify I'm 'Flemish Dutch'.
I must say I've never seen a lot of writing in flemish dialect. It exists, by local folk singers, but is a lot less used as Swiss german is.
We all speak our dialect in daily life, but have no difficulty in switching to the 'cleaner' Dutch.

One thing is striking however, the difficulty for a French speaking person (Swiss Romand in Switzerland or Walloon in Belgium) to get around with his knowledge of the German language... In the SwissGerman part as well as in Flanders, High German or High Dutch only puts him at the beginnings of his troubles.
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  #33  
Old 02.05.2011, 22:39
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

There is no point of comparaison between Dutch and SwissGerman. Sorry, I know that comes as a shock for some of the readers. In the following, identified as SG and NL.

Linguistically, SG is southern superior German, alemanic branch. High German is linked to it as superior German standard that takes saxon grammar and mixed vocab. NL is western low German, frankisch branch. High German is two houses away: there is the Benrath line and branch attachment between them.

NL as a standard language started actually at three places more or less at the same time: Vlanderen, Brabant and Noordholland. The political and economical situation makes the one or the other more or less powerful over the language, and the last in date is Noordholland. The present NL standard is mostly western north frankisch-hollands with the whole background from southern previous stages of cultural developpment. In other word, NL is the only succesful low-German standard language.

Norther Germany could have linguistically refer to that language, and even the Dutch used to call their own language nederduitsch. But Northern Germany took over the standard from superior German, from the south, a language that was actually foreign to them, but they just shifted language. The present low-German dialects spoken and written in Northern Germany are the last witnesses of the northern-low German heritage.

SG did not need a specific standard, as it can relate to the standart of superior German, as a dialect of it. Noone however dispute SG or Bairisch or Elsässisch a large amound of specificities within the frame of superior German language group.

There is nothing in the way for local standards: Luxemburg did it. Alsace tried to do it. Why not also Switzerland if they wanted to... but they do not want. They never wanted and nobody wants it today either. The only relevant question in Switzerland is how diglossia is delt with and organized in education and public life. Nothing more.

And even if you don't believe me, the difference between some dialects of Germany or Austria and High German is bigger than between SG and High German. When an Ostfrisian low-German speaker goes to school, he learns High German as another language, technically, it would be less fuzz for him to go to Dutch school.
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Old 02.05.2011, 22:45
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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There haven't been any outstanding swiss writers since Frisch and Dürrenmatt died 20 years ago. I think this happens when the spoken language and written language in a country are different from another. Therefore my suggestion to standardize swiss german.
My dear, you've plainly overlooked Roger Köppel and the Weltwoche....
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Old 02.05.2011, 23:05
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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My dear, you've plainly overlooked Roger Köppel and the Weltwoche....
Storybooks for the elderly...
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Old 02.05.2011, 23:54
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

And I don't think kindy should be all only about playing. Stimulation is important. If you set a super slow pace, keep the super slow pace for a couple of years, then speed up rapidly when kids are 5th or 6th grade, it won't make them interested in learning. I can't really comment on what's happening with SG, since it is far. But understand the patriotic feeling very well. Re: letting kids be kids, I think kids are understimulated here, if you take the language aside. Blowing bubbles and making cute faces. I think a bit of curriculum wouldn't kill anyone, and would give them a good start for laters. So, there...
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  #37  
Old 03.05.2011, 00:00
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

I think it is important for foreign kids to be exposed to Swiss German in Kindergarten, this will make it much easier for them to learn it.
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Old 03.05.2011, 00:44
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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There haven't been any outstanding swiss writers since Frisch and Dürrenmatt died 20 years ago. I think this happens when the spoken language and written language in a country are different from another. Therefore my suggestion to standardize swiss german.
Hansjörg Schneider with his Kommissär Hunkeler may not be "outstanding" by your comparison but is successful, and his books are in Standard German and well sold in Germany. His books only can be sold commercially thanks to the German language market (D/CH/OE).

Conrad Ferdinand Meyer and all the others I have in mind have died long ago, but their books are still an essential part of culture. Friedrich Schiller and Freiherr von Goethe are, even as Germans, integral part of Swiss culture, and Lexica edited and printed in Germany are important.

Ever heard of the Duden Kommission ? In which Swiss and Austrians participate permanently to shape modern German language.

No, German speaking Switzerland is part of the German language culture, not only has been so, but will stay to be so !
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Old 03.05.2011, 00:50
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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It is not as simple as that. And I wouldn't say Flemish is far closer to German than Dutch...

For many decades it has been assumed that Dutch spoken in the Netherlands was correct Dutch, or we could say, in comparison with High German and Swiss German, it was High Dutch. It was probably a lot more stable as a language because of historical reasons, as the Flemish remained more time under foreign influence. The Flemish spoke some Flemish Dutch dialects. And these dialects were, as all dialects are, very regional, one could say in some cases very hard to understand when a 'stranger'. However, there were and still are also dialects in the Netherlands.

The Flemish have defended their Dutch language and made efforts to develop a standard 'Flemish Dutch' language from the 1960-ies onwards. It was in fact proper 'Dutch' which was promoted, as the grammar and vocabulary is identical to High Dutch. In pronouncing however, the Flemish do not imitate the High Dutch way of pronouncing.
We had, when I was at school in the 60'ies in Brugge, a daily 5 minutes evening program on TV on how to say things in proper Dutch, which we were asked to follow by our teachers.

Over the years, collaboration between the linguistic organisms of the Netherlands and Belgium has been developed and the 'linguistic steering' of the language is now assured by a binational committee.

Although dialects are still alive, I don't think Flemish people are ashamed or annoyed to tell their mother tongue is - simply- Dutch. It is a general public notion that Dutch covers the Netherlands and Flanders for all of us. You wouldn't find this kind of Swiss German pride in such a general way.
My mother tongue is Dutch. I never specify I'm 'Flemish Dutch'.
I must say I've never seen a lot of writing in flemish dialect. It exists, by local folk singers, but is a lot less used as Swiss german is.
We all speak our dialect in daily life, but have no difficulty in switching to the 'cleaner' Dutch.

One thing is striking however, the difficulty for a French speaking person (Swiss Romand in Switzerland or Walloon in Belgium) to get around with his knowledge of the German language... In the SwissGerman part as well as in Flanders, High German or High Dutch only puts him at the beginnings of his troubles.
Simple or not simple, what I mentioned is based on practical experience. Listening to Flemish speakers in Belgium for a German speaker is easy, but not listening to Dutch speakers in the Netherlands.
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Old 03.05.2011, 00:55
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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There haven't been any outstanding swiss writers since Frisch and Dürrenmatt died 20 years ago. I think this happens when the spoken language and written language in a country are different from another. Therefore my suggestion to standardize swiss german.
Good point.
Though I am wondering if the lack of quality of Swiss literature may not be due to the negligence of Standard German in education over the last 20 years, and the inclination to 'Swiss Germanize' any type of written communication by the younger generation.

(As heard recently on radio, not even the most prominent Swiss writers, like Zoe Jenny or Lukas Baerfuss, are these days able to conduct a sophisticated conversation in HG when asked to do so.)
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