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  #121  
Old 16.05.2011, 18:17
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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2. She interprets the law that there is still space for both languages. (The text of the initiative is not that well written and therefore leaves spaces for interpretation. I personally find this equally wrong as the intention of the initiative is after all crystal clear... and in a democracy is it her job to accept the opinion of the voters no matter if she personally agrees or not.)

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  #122  
Old 16.05.2011, 18:22
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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If kids finish their education un-able to speak, read and write High German- it is likely to make it very difficult for them to access higher education and a whole array of 'better' jobs- so it can be seen as a form of 'handicap'. In this sense, the sooner they can work towards god competence in both dialect and high german, the better. Chips on shoulders rarely help, do they?
I don't think there is cause for panic.

Children are still able to learn new languages with great ease and speak them without any discernible accent up until at least the age of 8.

The fact that practically no Swiss manage that would suggest to me that the problem lies much more in the eduaction system as a whole and not singly in the Kindergarten.

Having said that, what I find worrying about the initiative is not so much what was decided but that educators and teachers did not play much of a role in the campaigns.
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  #123  
Old 16.05.2011, 18:26
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

It about time they formalised Swiss German with dictionaries/lessons etc.
Otherwise the language will wither.
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  #124  
Old 16.05.2011, 18:30
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

Which Swiss German though. Zuritutsch or Berntutsch, or ...?
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  #125  
Old 16.05.2011, 18:43
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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It about time they formalised Swiss German with dictionaries/lessons etc.
Otherwise the language will wither.
The language is German, delivered in many shapes, like all Germanic languages and frankly speaking, I find the dialect/locallanguage situation far more dramatic in Italy than in any corner of the German speaking area.

The worse case scenario would be the norwegian schizophrenia. No one want that in Switzerland. The question is just not relevant for the locals, it is only a topic of conversation for expats with language difficulties.
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  #126  
Old 16.05.2011, 19:01
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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And yet, if you think about the same from the English point of view, it is rare to hear 'successful' business or professional people use 'I were stood standing there' or 'we was proper frit', etc. Most people who were brought up using Geordie or Scouse, etc, have had to adapt their accent and grammar to climb the ladder (some lost their original accent/language sadly in the process- others have become sort of bi-lingual, eg know when to use they local language and when it is not 'suitable'.
Yes and no, of course it is important to be able to speak and write high German. But Swiss-Germans never speak HG among each other no matter how educated, upper-classy or rich they are.
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  #127  
Old 16.05.2011, 20:25
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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And so...why do you find the grammar and spelling of some native english speakers to be 'appalling'?
Because I think it's testament to a slapdash teaching attitude and is a shame that people don't take pride in their writing and an embarrassment that non-native speakers can articulate English as a foreign language better than some native speakers.

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According to you, it won't stop them from operating on a patient...
Absolutely correct.

Your point is?
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  #128  
Old 16.05.2011, 21:22
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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I fully understand what the vote was about. It is the typical "we are losing our cultural identity" fear mongering .
no no no, I think you see it a bit too strictly (zu eng ) ! I think I was not alone when voting YES as seeing Standard German already in Kindergarten as a bit heavy and a bit of getting from one extreme to the other. Not too long ago, in the 90ies, some teachers started to talk dialect even with above 12 years olds in their lessons. In our time, it in Kindergarten clearly was dialect. The first class saw a gradualy change-over and it was fully Standard German from the very first day of the second class.

To me, and presumably most, it had nothing to do with "cultural identity" but with normal behaviours

I would prefer to see all those "Lokalradio"-stations stop translating their StandardGerman texts into some dialect, but speak StandardGerman at least when reading out news and thelike. Are you aware of the fact that the texts of the "Meteo" of SFDRS are of course in High German and are "back-translated" by the presenters ? THIS is rubbish !


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Wow. As a parent I'm baffled by this decision. Admittedly, my preference is that my son learns the universally functional high german but i also thinks it's good that he learns dialect. Based on the premise that two languages are better than one, especially during the kindergarten years, it makes little sense to ban high german except to exert nationalistic tendancies. What a win for the SVP. :-(
It is NOT a win for the SVP, but a loss for the SVP ! Why ? Because they just overnight lost something to launch an argument about

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I just heard an interview with the "Bildungsdirektorin" of Canton Zurich.

1. She is unhappy about the decision that there needs to be a law.

2. She interprets the law that there is still space for both languages. (The text of the initiative is not that well written and therefore leaves spaces for interpretation. I personally find this equally wrong as the intention of the initiative is after all crystal clear... and in a democracy is it her job to accept the opinion of the voters no matter if she personally agrees or not.)

3. The changes will only take place for the school year starting Sep 2012.

Make your mind UP. There are NOT TWO languages, but only ONE. The dialects in any language are not different languages.


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As a Swiss (Romande) I'm still sitting on the fence on this one. Been following the situation on this thread and the Press- and I can see both sides. In Basle btw education in infant schools will continue 50/50 - which I think is a good solution.

If kids finish their education un-able to speak, read and write High German- it is likely to make it very difficult for them to access higher education and a whole array of 'better' jobs- so it can be seen as a form of 'handicap'. In this sense, the sooner they can work towards god competence in both dialect and high german, the better. Chips on shoulders rarely help, do they?

Must say I ma glad we do not have this 'problem' in Romandie, where the variations between standard French and Suisse Romand are very minor, and mainly limited to vocabulary. When I was a kid we all had strong local accents- I notice that now teenagers here do not. I was lucky my mother spoke a very clear non accented French, and my dad did have a Neuchatel accent- so I was sort of brought up 'bi-lingual' and soon learnt to adapt accent and register depending on audience, a very useful skill. Many Yorkshire, Cornish, Scousers or Geordies, etc, will identify with that.
Standard German is Standard language in Primary and Secondary schools all over German speaking Switzerland. So that nobody can finish education without Standard German. In the Canton of Zurich, the rules recently were stiffened, which means that it is now Standard German again as in the 50ies and 60ies (and before). In details it even is stiffer.


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  #129  
Old 16.05.2011, 21:51
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Well, considering here in Switzerland the written and ''professional'' language is high german, then yes, it would be a huge disadvantage if the kids are not comfortable and extremely proficient with it. The problem is, like I said in my previous post, the majority is already not so great at it, so why not address that then? Unless Switzerland wants to eliminate high german completely from their culture (at which point there would have to be some sort of standardization of Swiss German), I don't see why they wouldn't teach their children this language as early as possible, since it is apparently here to stay- I really don't get it.

I do not believe the dialect would flounder- when the Soviet Empire forced the Russian language in Eastern Europe, none of those countries ever forgot how to speak their own. My grandmother grew up having to speak Russian in school, but not one of her classmates/teachers/relatives/neighbors ever forgot how to speak their country's ''true'' language...
Who says that Switzerland wants to eliminate Standard German ?
Who says that Standard German is not to be taught in school ?
-
in reality, Standard German is THE language in Primary schools, Secondary schools and Professional schools. As mentioned above, this quite recently has even been heavily reinforced in the Canton of Zürich.

Your comparison with Eastern Europe is wrong on various counts
- it is REAL languages you speak about
- the Soviet Union did NOT work against languages like Polish, etc
- German was THE second official language of Comecon +WarsawPact
- the Russians of course tried to press through Russian insde the USSR
- Russian was language nr 2 in all countries of the Comecon
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  #130  
Old 16.05.2011, 21:57
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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A language is ultimately defined, not by what the grammar books and the ivory tower professors that write them think, but by the majority consensus.

If everybody makes the same mistake, that usage becomes de-facto right and is hence no longer a mistake. Languages are not set in stone but are continually developing.


True, but I was really just hoping we won't have to accept words like "preggers", "baby-daddy", "OMG" (spoken as Oh M Gee), "delish" et al anytime soon
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  #131  
Old 16.05.2011, 22:00
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

I don't understand what the fuss is about, we're talking about the Kindergarten, children in that age shall not have to think about whether to speak formal german or not...as foreigner with a son in Kindergarten there were absolutely no problem at all for him learning the local dialect, of course it took some time in the beginning but children in that age tend to learn very quickly...and today I'm actually quite proud that my son speaks and understand the local language...
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  #132  
Old 16.05.2011, 22:06
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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That's the part of the business world you see...
1. The by far strongest trade partner of Switzerland is Germany. Being able to speak high German is more important than English in Switzerland. Many of my Swiss colleagues are frankly pretty rubbish at it, especially when it comes to writing it. I understand them as I have lived here long enough but many terms they constantly use raise more than an eyebrow at our customers...
A) Many people are rubbish about Standard German, because they WANT to be rubbish about it
B) They did and do most or all of their writing in Standard German, and so, if they fail in this, it simply is carelessness
C) terms ? I mean, here nobody will write about the Gehsteig but of course about the Trottoir, nobody will write about a Strassenbahn but of course about the Tram, nobody will write about the Fahrrad but about the Velo, nobody will write about the Hubschrauber but about the Helikopter, nobody (outside the military) will write about the Urlaub but about the Ferien . These "terms" may be Helvetizsms, but are all covered in the Duden

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2. Even in the multinationals from Pharma to banking: Yes, English is the official language and you need it. But most international companies throw Switzerland into one market unit with Germany and Austria. So if you want a job in market communication or anything customer facing, you are competing with Germans for a high German speaking job.
Ever checked how many Swiss are in managerial positions in Germany ? Unbelievably many !


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Swiss people do not like Standard German.
Wrong and right at the same time, and basically a generalisation.
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  #133  
Old 16.05.2011, 22:08
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Who says that Switzerland wants to eliminate Standard German ?
Who says that Standard German is not to be taught in school ?
-
in reality, Standard German is THE language in Primary schools, Secondary schools and Professional schools. As mentioned above, this quite recently has even been heavily reinforced in the Canton of Zürich.

Your comparison with Eastern Europe is wrong on various counts
- it is REAL languages you speak about
- the Soviet Union did NOT work against languages like Polish, etc
- German was THE second official language of Comecon +WarsawPact
- the Russians of course tried to press through Russian insde the USSR
- Russian was language nr 2 in all countries of the Comecon


Nobody said standard german would be eliminated- that's exactly my point. If you're going to keep this language for primary schools, professional schools, etc, and you dont want to standardize the dialect in some way, why wouldn't you welcome an initiate that teaches kids this language earlier?

As for the Russian language comment, I'm trying to say that the children who HAD to only speak in Russian at school never forgot their parents language. It doesnt matter whether its real languages I'm speaking about, because a child doesnt have a vast enough grasp of it, whether it is dialect or "real"- yet they still kept alive their language just by speaking it at home and on the playground. As my grandma said, the only good thing that came out of communism for her was the fact that she could now speak a new language at mother-tongue level...
Why should the Swiss be any different?
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  #134  
Old 16.05.2011, 22:12
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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In Holland, Dutch TV almost always subtitle people on the news, documentaries etc, even if their dialect is ever so slight.

Over here, the media automatically expect people to understand a broad range of dialects and High German.
Which indeed can be a nuisance. Few people understand "Ober-Walliserisch" (I do ) but there are speakers in media who speak that dialect, and cause heaps of misunderstandings
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  #135  
Old 16.05.2011, 22:15
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Which Swiss German though. Zuritutsch or Berntutsch, or ...?
Education is a matter of the Cantons
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  #136  
Old 16.05.2011, 22:29
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Nobody said standard german would be eliminated- that's exactly my point. If you're going to keep this language for primary schools, professional schools, etc, and you dont want to standardize the dialect in some way, why wouldn't you welcome an initiate that teaches kids this language earlier?
The idea was that it in Kindergarten should still be the local dialect. The question was WHEN the change-over to Standard German should begin. And the answer of the electorate is clear : the first year of Primary School, just as in the past.
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  #137  
Old 17.05.2011, 01:19
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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Which Swiss German though. Zuritutsch or Berntutsch, or ...?
From what I've glimpsed at the board, the Swiss don't want to standardize any of their dialects and won't anytime soon. But if they absolutely had to pick ONE dialect to standardize, I suspect it would be Zuritutsch because I hear it is the one most widely understood throughout German-speaking Switzerland. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am.)
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  #138  
Old 17.05.2011, 02:16
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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From what I've glimpsed at the board, the Swiss don't want to standardize any of their dialects and won't anytime soon. But if they absolutely had to pick ONE dialect to standardize, I suspect it would be Zuritutsch because I hear it is the one most widely understood throughout German-speaking Switzerland. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am.)
Ok Eddie, I know that you have never been outside the US... but anyway: The Swiss did standardize their language. In the 1890s did they decide to choose Mr Duden's book on grammar and dictionary as reference. That's some ten years before the same standard German became a standard in Germany.

The Swiss love their dialects. Not only does it identify them as Swiss, but where exactly they are from. Some of my colleagues can discuss forever in which part of the country what term is used... someone even programmed an software tool to "analyze your dialect": You choose the expression you use for a list of words and the computer tells you where you're from... (http://dialects.from.ch/)

In short:
1. There is no need to "standardize Swiss German" - that is exactly what standard German is for.
2. As the local dialect is important for Mr Schweizer would he rather cut his tongue off than to accept Züri German as a standard for the entire country. Most non-Zürich Swiss are not too fond of the city at all. I have seen t-shirts in Graubünden saying in their local dialect "Nid vo Züri" - "Not from Zurich"...
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Old 17.05.2011, 10:10
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

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I have seen t-shirts in Graubünden saying in their local dialect "Nid vo Züri" - "Not from Zurich"...
Oooh. I wonder if they do a Basel (or English) version. I might have to get me one of them.
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  #140  
Old 17.05.2011, 11:12
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Re: Keeping Swiss German in Kanton Zürich Kindergartens

20 Minuten states that 10 to 20 % of the 1.700 Kindergärtnerinnen are High German speakers and not Swiss. How exactly does one carry on an initiative ending up being unapplyable to such a large proportion of the people it is supposed to apply to?
If the goal is to forbid Germans to apply to Swiss schools, just say so.
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