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  #61  
Old 19.05.2011, 10:29
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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Tessin would not be the same if it served rösti and bratwurst as its local dish.
That is why we have buseca (tripe soup)

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  #62  
Old 19.05.2011, 11:18
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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Well I can tell you the celtic culture is still alive with a lot of people of celtic descent in parts of Scotland, especially the Highlands. And btw. the celtic culture in Scotland was not destroyed by the Romans (remember Hadrian's Wall?) but by the English. ( no offense, I know it wasn't you)
Where did I mention Scotland in my opening post?
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  #63  
Old 19.05.2011, 12:06
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

A very interesting thread, thanks DB. Quite right of course to focus on CH, but it seems others agree that it is just as relevant to other countries in this globalising world. Certainly the Scottish/irish/Welsh identity as compared to the British one is still very much relevant. To what extent do Cornish or Yorkshire born Brits feel their identity as such is more important than being British? Just like many Swiss people from central Switzerland, or Ticinese, etc, may feel that identity is more important than being Swiss. Same for US, etc, etc.
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  #64  
Old 19.05.2011, 12:16
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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I also live part of my life., still, in England. I feel the question is just as relevant there. You seem to have 'given up' on England, I haven't- may well go back and live there some time. But fine, stick to Switzerland for now.
True, linguists predict that some decades from now, such typical things as the Cockney language will be history. Wherther that is or is not regrettable may depend on which side of Watford you were born, but it shows how macro developments can have local effects.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the Irish Sea, Her Majesty is doing her utmost best to mend fences and make good for centuries of colonialist repression of a nation that one side thought had the right to exist because it was Celtic and hence different, and the other side thought should better be integrated because the Celtic bit wasn't so important and we're all Brits after all and all that. So yes, culture matters and people can do extraordinary things when they see their culture is threatened. And on the other side oppressors will intentionally target culture because by reducing and triviliasing it, the oppressed will ultimately lose the focus that can define them as being different and so will give in to the integration more readily. Ask the Soviets. Ask the Romans. Ask the Spaniards.
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  #65  
Old 19.05.2011, 12:24
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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A very interesting thread, thanks DB. Quite right of course to focus on CH, but it seems others agree that it is just as relevant to other countries in this globalising world. Certainly the Scottish/irish/Welsh identity as compared to the British one is still very much relevant. To what extent do Cornish or Yorkshire born Brits feel their identity as such is more important than being British? Just like many Swiss people from central Switzerland, or Ticinese, etc, may feel that identity is more important than being Swiss. Same for US, etc, etc.
I cannot speak for those from Yorkshire, but I do know that the Cornish are extremely proud of their identity and, for the most part, see themselves (ourselves) as being Cornish first, and English second. (And yes, I did choose to use the word English as opposed to British).
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  #66  
Old 19.05.2011, 12:33
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

Let us take as an example the Flemish. A bit more then 200 years ago, they fought against the Dutch and sought to attach themselves to the enemies of their enemies because at that time religion was more important than ethnicity or language and so a border was re-drawn along religious lines.

In the following 200 years a lot has changed and people identify more with language or ethnicity than with religions and so the Flemish are seeking to redress and reverse the division.

In 150 years time, will we see Pakistan seeking to break away from the Muslim nations and seeking to rejoin India?
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  #67  
Old 19.05.2011, 14:04
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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In the following 200 years a lot has changed and people identify more with language or ethnicity than with religions and so the Flemish are seeking to redress and reverse the division.

The Flemish aren't serious about reversing any divisions...if you closely follow Belgian politics you'd easily know that...

[QUOTE;1201528]In 150 years time, will we see Pakistan seeking to break away from the Muslim nations and seeking to rejoin India?
In 150 years time, Pakistan will be part of the Greater Saudi?
My opinion? with all these conflicts, within the next 150 years, we'll lose track of all sorts of borders and claim back our original wardrobe...Ladies & gents this is what we'll look like then:

http://www.google.ch/imgres?imgurl=h...w=1366&bih=643
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  #68  
Old 19.05.2011, 15:33
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

I don't make a big thing about where I come from. It's other people, as soon as I open my gob!
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  #69  
Old 19.05.2011, 17:54
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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I don't make a big thing about where I come from. It's other people, as soon as I open my gob!
I doubt it...do you usually pull with those hair rollers like that? that might be it
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  #70  
Old 19.05.2011, 18:39
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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In the following 200 years a lot has changed and people identify more with language or ethnicity than with religions
Well, no. Religion is not topic anymore for me or you, but many Millions take it very seriously. In order to make it for once not go down the "All Muslims are terrorists" track, a fun example from the US:



There are still today wars going on in the name of religion (for example Sudan). Religion is one of the strongest factors when it comes to "identity" - a religion typically tells you what to believe and how to behave. Somebody of another religion by default has to be "wrong"... and that's where the trouble starts - if you have a clear line between "them and us" and ideally a God that wrote in some holy book that it is ok to kill people of another faith, you make it so much easier to use "them" as scapegoats or worse...
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  #71  
Old 19.05.2011, 19:07
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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<snip> typically tells you what to believe and how to behave. Somebody of another nationality by default has to be "wrong"... and that's where the trouble starts <snip>
yes, we English have to deal with others' mistakes every day...
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  #72  
Old 19.05.2011, 20:09
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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yes, we English have to deal with others' mistakes every day...
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  #73  
Old 19.05.2011, 20:19
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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There are still today wars going on in the name of religion (for example Sudan). Religion is one of the strongest factors when it comes to "identity"
What did you base that assumption on exactly?
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Old 19.05.2011, 20:19
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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yes, we English have to deal with others' mistakes every day...
Especially when they don't speak our language agrr
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  #75  
Old 20.05.2011, 00:09
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

As I learnt in Irish studies, cultural identities are not so much what you are but who you are not. A walk through the shank hill ghetto of Northern Ireland with it's elaborate and almost intimidating cultural murals will crystalize this notion.
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  #76  
Old 20.05.2011, 01:05
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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Let us take as an example the Flemish. A bit more then 200 years ago, they fought against the Dutch and sought to attach themselves to the enemies of their enemies because at that time religion was more important than ethnicity or language and so a border was re-drawn along religious lines.

In the following 200 years a lot has changed and people identify more with language or ethnicity than with religions and so the Flemish are seeking to redress and reverse the division.

In 150 years time, will we see Pakistan seeking to break away from the Muslim nations and seeking to rejoin India?
Pakistan cannot "break away from the Muslim nations" as A) there is no "Muslim community of nations, and B) in spite of the overwhelming majority of Hindhus, India in fact also is one of the largest Muslim nations on the planet. Would Pakistan and Bangladesh rejoin India, there would still be a clear Hindhu majority but India would become the largest Muslim nation on earth
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  #77  
Old 23.05.2011, 16:49
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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Pakistan cannot "break away from the Muslim nations" as A) there is no "Muslim community of nations, and B) in spite of the overwhelming majority of Hindhus, India in fact also is one of the largest Muslim nations on the planet. Would Pakistan and Bangladesh rejoin India, there would still be a clear Hindhu majority but India would become the largest Muslim nation on earth
maybe my brain was two steps ahead of my fingers when I was typing that.

What I meant was that today, Pakistan defines istself (in part) through its Muslim culture. The country even has the half moon, a symbol for iIslam, on its national flag and crest. India may have more Muslims than Pakistan, but that doesn't reflect in the national identity. The values and forces that keep India united as a nation in spite of the multiple and varied cultures within revolve around other things than a single religion. So if 150 years from now, values and attitudes should have changed to the point that Pakistanis say, religion doesn't matter, but history does, then there might be a call to re-join India, and that call would have certain parallels to what is happening in Flanders today. Ie, the basis for a partition that occurred 200 years earlier for religious reasons no longer has much of a leg to stand on in a society in which religion doesn't play such an important part any more.

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Old 23.05.2011, 16:58
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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As I learnt in Irish studies, cultural identities are not so much what you are but who you are not. A walk through the shank hill ghetto of Northern Ireland with it's elaborate and almost intimidating cultural murals will crystalize this notion.
Isn't that really about inclusive nationalism versus exclusive nationalism.

Inclusive nationalism is for example English Victorian poets writing about Welsh or Scottish legends and heroes and somehow claiming them for "Britain", or the Royal Pavillion in Brighton being modelled on traditional Indian architecture, or in a modern day context, the concept that the British national dish should be chicken tikka masala. It doesn't really matter who really invented it. If we like it then somehow it's also to some extent ours.

Exclusive nationalism is the opposite of that and seeks aspects that are unique to one nation in order to be able to differentiate it more clearly and exclude those elements that it considers foreign. That's the nationalism of the BNP or of the extreme factions in N. Ireland.
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Old 23.05.2011, 17:12
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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Isn't that really about inclusive nationalism versus exclusive nationalism.
Good point. Who can give me an example of an inclusive religion?

The only one I can come up with were the old Romans, who simply included Egyptian, Germany or Celtic gods into their own believe system whenever they conquered a new territory. But the modern monotheistic ones are fairly exclusive...

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Old 24.05.2011, 06:45
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Re: Cultural Identity: Why is it so important?

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maybe my brain was two steps ahead of my fingers when I was typing that.

What I meant was that today, Pakistan defines istself (in part) through its Muslim culture. The country even has the half moon, a symbol for iIslam, on its national flag and crest. India may have more Muslims than Pakistan, but that doesn't reflect in the national identity. The values and forces that keep India united as a nation in spite of the multiple and varied cultures within revolve around other things than a single religion. So if 150 years from now, values and attitudes should have changed to the point that Pakistanis say, religion doesn't matter, but history does, then there might be a call to re-join India, and that call would have certain parallels to what is happening in Flanders today. Ie, the basis for a partition that occurred 200 years earlier for religious reasons no longer has much of a leg to stand on in a society in which religion doesn't play such an important part any more.
THIS is the problem of Pakistan. It is in fact the only nation on earth just defined by a religion. Israel may be religiously-Jewish but is defined by "Jewish people" which allows secularist Israelis to identify in full with their country. The halfmoon is no problem. Royal Egypt had three of them in the flag, and secularist countries like Turkey and Tunisia have at least one in the flag. Flanders is the majority part of Belgium and so it is not so much a breaking away but a partition. The bond which keeps Belgium together is King Albert, but the charismatic King does unfortunately not have eternal life and one day will pass out. In Belgium, Flanders is Flemish speaking while the Wallonie is French. Remains the City of Brussels/Brussel/Bruxelles. I might suggest that they go the way of SABENA which long ago has become Brussels Airlines and so become the bilingual REPUBLIC OF BRUSSELS. But back to Pakistan, this country which only is defined by Islam, has run out of basics. To re-unite with India and Bangladesh would make lots of sense.
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