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  #21  
Old 24.05.2011, 11:58
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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It's only the SP, SVP and Greens that really make their agenda crystal clear in Switzerland, it's time for the others to step up to the plate if they want my vote this fall.
Despite probably meeting with howls of disgareemant I'll venture to say that I don't agree.

The SVP message is very loud but is not at all clear. In fact it is so intentionally vague that a lot of people are able to project what they think into it, without the SVP ever having said 80% of the things that many people (including many on this forum) steadfastly believe that the SVP stands for.

In fact the stunning thing about the SVP is that they are growing and that they are causing embitered debates about things that they haven't actually said. At their core, the SVP is run by a bunch of business folks who just want to create a more business-friendly environment so that they can run their businesses better. That includes low taxes and streamlined regulations. Everything else is just stirring the pot. I don't think they care one way or the other about many of the themes that people associate them with. Compare this to the abortion debate in the USA. A lot of the people on both sides of the debate don't really care about abortion one way or the other. It's way too far down on their list of priorities. But a good debate stirs embers to flames and pushes them up in the popularity lists, so its a useful topic and it's a question that will never be fully resolved because whatever is decided, a large number of people will remain unhappy and attempt to push it over at the next opportunity. So anybody at the forefront of that has a cause for life (sorry about the pun)
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  #22  
Old 24.05.2011, 12:45
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Toni Brunner said that the SVP wanted to achieve controlled migration ie along the lines of "control, limit, select".

Immigrants would thus have a job offer from Switzerland, can secure their own existence and be capable of integration. At the legislative level, the SVP could introduce a points system, as suggested by Lukas Reimann SVP-National with a parliamentary motion even though any restriction of immigration is contrary to free movement agreements with the EU.

More Swissinfo DE / Suedostschweiz DE

Crude EN translations here and here respectively

So sorry, but what will the initiative be about ? "Tony Brunner says" to me irrelevant as Tony Brunner says a lot !
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  #23  
Old 24.05.2011, 14:13
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

You guys are overthinking the whole SVP referendum vis a vis EU immigration. I don't see any major changes in the horizon as of yet. And should there be any major change, it won't be exclusive to CH. It'll sweep through Europe.

Don't you forget that the Swiss voted for the Schengen agreement to be implemented so they too wish to be part of a greater community
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  #24  
Old 24.05.2011, 14:27
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Despite probably meeting with howls of disgareemant I'll venture to say that I don't agree.

The SVP message is very loud but is not at all clear. In fact it is so intentionally vague that a lot of people are able to project what they think into it, without the SVP ever having said 80% of the things that many people (including many on this forum) steadfastly believe that the SVP stands for.

In fact the stunning thing about the SVP is that they are growing and that they are causing embitered debates about things that they haven't actually said. At their core, the SVP is run by a bunch of business folks who just want to create a more business-friendly environment so that they can run their businesses better. That includes low taxes and streamlined regulations. Everything else is just stirring the pot. I don't think they care one way or the other about many of the themes that people associate them with. Compare this to the abortion debate in the USA. A lot of the people on both sides of the debate don't really care about abortion one way or the other. It's way too far down on their list of priorities. But a good debate stirs embers to flames and pushes them up in the popularity lists, so its a useful topic and it's a question that will never be fully resolved because whatever is decided, a large number of people will remain unhappy and attempt to push it over at the next opportunity. So anybody at the forefront of that has a cause for life (sorry about the pun)
about "the SVP is that they are growing" - are you sure?
They have lost a chunk of support to the BDP over the last couple of years & more recently in Zürich lost another chunk of support to the "Green Liberals" (GLP).
Just found this article in Tagesanzeiger that forecasts with the current rate of people coming into Switz. there will be 400,000 workers too few in 2030!! Link is here (in German)
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/21808798

Last edited by marton; 24.05.2011 at 14:56.
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  #25  
Old 24.05.2011, 15:06
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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about "the SVP is that they are growing" - are you sure?
They have lost a chunk of support to the BDP over the last couple of years & more recently in Zürich lost another chunk of support to the "Green Liberals" (GLP).
Just found this article in Tagesanzeiger that forecasts with the current rate of people coming into Switz. there will be 400,000 workers too few in 2030!! Link is here (in German)
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/21808798
I believe the BDP is just a temporary phenomenon.

To attempt to be a cuddly friendly version of the SVP is to misunderstand what the SVP is about.

I believe the green liberals are more fishing in the CVP and (to a lesser extent) FDP pond right now, and not really taking on the SVP.

Time will tell.
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  #26  
Old 24.05.2011, 15:21
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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I believe the BDP is just a temporary phenomenon.

To attempt to be a cuddly friendly version of the SVP is to misunderstand what the SVP is about.

I believe the green liberals are more fishing in the CVP and (to a lesser extent) FDP pond right now, and not really taking on the SVP.

Time will tell.
I disagree. From the actual SVP voters I met, a very large portion voted them "because we always did" from the time they were the pro-farming peoples party and not yet the childishly ranting populists they are since Blocher turned the ZH part of it upside down.
A huge portion of the 30% the party gets are from the rural cantons like BE, SZ, GR... and many do not at all appreciate the extremer cases of the populism. Pro farmers? Yes. Conservative? Yes. Europe critical? Yes. Blaming everything on some imaginary criminal foreigners? No.
Many accepted the questionable posters for a long time without actually liking them. And many got a bit too much of it in the last years.
So if the BDP manages to have some charismatic leaders they could be the most positive thing that has happened to Switzerland for a long time - the split between the more reasonable conservatives and the less reasonable ones.

Last edited by Treverus; 24.05.2011 at 19:56.
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  #27  
Old 24.05.2011, 16:07
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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about "the SVP is that they are growing" - are you sure?
They have lost a chunk of support to the BDP over the last couple of years & more recently in Zürich lost another chunk of support to the "Green Liberals" (GLP).
Just found this article in Tagesanzeiger that forecasts with the current rate of people coming into Switz. there will be 400,000 workers too few in 2030!! Link is here (in German)
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/...story/21808798

According to Tony Brunner the SVP is to grow to above 30% but according to the son-in-law of Mr Blocher, they can be happy not to lose shares and drop to below 25%.

Bundesrat Johann Schneider-Ammann, the Federal Minister in charge with Economic Affairs, says that problems about construction of apartments/flats and problems about immigration should not be blamed upon immigration. According to him, Switzerland also in future will depend on having workers on all levels from abroad. The new agreements about Personenfreizügigkeit helped to avoid a drying out of workforce. Such a dyring out would have resulted in industries getting away and would have cost the jobs of many Swiss people.

A recent study, right along with Schneider-Ammann reveals that Switzerland within the next 20 years will not need less but FAR MORE immigrants in order to keep up work as required.
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  #28  
Old 24.05.2011, 16:12
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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I believe the BDP is just a temporary phenomenon.

To attempt to be a cuddly friendly version of the SVP is to misunderstand what the SVP is about.

I believe the green liberals are more fishing in the CVP and (to a lesser extent) FDP pond right now, and not really taking on the SVP.

Time will tell.

A) in the recent elections, the Green Liberals took away from the SVP quite clearly, and only to a lesser extent from the CVP. As they are looking for discontent RIGHT of centre. They did not "take on" the SVP. But they clearly attacked the SVP basis.
B) What finally will happen with the BDP is unclear. Clear however is that the BDP politicians and their voters are NOT to rejoin the SVP. They may merge either with the FDP or the CVP/EVP-alliance. That a 3.5% party does not really have a great future however is obvious.

There was sufficient info about these things in the media
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Old 24.05.2011, 17:30
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Yes, I should ignore you. But this is not sarcasm, it is ignorance: "Das Boot ist voll" stands for a not so nice part of Swiss history - In 1942 was the government apparently well aware what was happening to Jews in Germany. They still decided to block Jewish refugees from entering Switzerland. They allowed "political refugees" to come, but if your only reason was "racial", you were refused. (Except of Geneva, where the citizens apparently did not give a lot about the politics made in Berne). The only ones who use the term today are pretty hardcore neonazis. Using the term right next to the Swiss value of human rights is... probably not really funny for many survivors or their families.

I know that I cannot really change you, but anyway: Being German, I try my best to be a bit careful and not hurt someones feelings in the area. I know when I can make a Nazi joke and when not. You are yourself from an immigration background and from one where your ex-government today threatens Israel with "extinction". Maybe you should think a bit more before posting ignorant shit like that as well. But I guess you will rather reply with a collection of completely off-topic youtube links...
I was taught the term by a Swiss who was not in favour of the country being swamped by foreigners. It seems to me that you have not read the post or the link that I provided. Haesler is the writer of das Boot ist Voll. He also wrote about frontismus, which to me is still a prevalent undercurrent in the German-speaking cantons such as Schaffhausen, Thurgau etc. This is Blocher -land. If you think that neonazism in Switzerland is a joke it isn't, or if you don't think that Blocher doesn't play the the frontismus card then you are wrong. I am sensitive to the plight of Jews (and now ordinary Muslims), racism is racism whichever form it takes. It damages the progression of all people. Many Germans and Swiss try to ignore the fact that racism is prevalent, they shudder at words such as Das Boot ist full, yet privately many use such phrases while others hear and ignore them. They shy away from tackling the issue. As long as they shy away from it, politicians will continue to manipulate people's fears of other cultures.
As far as I am concerned the SVP have Neonazi tendencies, if that's charismatic to you Assassin then I suppose that's your choice. If the choice for me is charismatic neo-nazism or waffling confusion then I'll take waffling confusion anyday.

Treverus you didn't read the article- did you?
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  #30  
Old 24.05.2011, 17:56
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Two things folks:

1) Swiss people get to vote on what we want as our laws and not what any specific political party feels like spearheading their electoral campaigns with.

2) In case no one had noticed, Switzerland remains independent and not a part of the EU whatever bilaterals have been signed.

Seems to me that many on this thread are looking for a groovy new anti-SVP argument when there really isn't anything new to be bitter about. I'd rather read something about how the other parties like the CVP and FDP are going to step up to the challenge and start bringing some real policies to the table rather than waffling confusion and fielding charisma lacking politicians. It's only the SP, SVP and Greens that really make their agenda crystal clear in Switzerland, it's time for the others to step up to the plate if they want my vote this fall.
Do the Swiss vote on

1.
Quote:
Swiss people get to vote on what we want as our laws and not what any specific political party feels like spearheading their electoral campaigns with.
or
2. Charismatic politicians with seemingly crystal clear agendas

?

Last edited by hoppy; 24.05.2011 at 18:06.
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  #31  
Old 24.05.2011, 18:07
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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According to Tony Brunner the SVP is to grow to above 30% but according to the son-in-law of Mr Blocher, they can be happy not to lose shares and drop to below 25%.

Bundesrat Johann Schneider-Ammann, the Federal Minister in charge with Economic Affairs, says that problems about construction of apartments/flats and problems about immigration should not be blamed upon immigration. According to him, Switzerland also in future will depend on having workers on all levels from abroad. The new agreements about Personenfreizügigkeit helped to avoid a drying out of workforce. Such a dyring out would have resulted in industries getting away and would have cost the jobs of many Swiss people.

A recent study, right along with Schneider-Ammann reveals that Switzerland within the next 20 years will not need less but FAR MORE immigrants in order to keep up work as required.
About the future of the SVP
I was reading about James Schwarzenbach who was a far-right Swiss politician, head of the Republican Party of Switzerland.
Schwarzenbach is chiefly known for his initiative on Überfremdung ("excess of foreigners") that was put to the vote in 1970. The referendum had a record turn-out (75%), with 45% of the votes supporting Schwarzenbach's proposal. The proposal, if accepted, would have meant that the Swiss government had to limit foreign workers to Switzerland to 10%, which at the point in time would have meant the deportation of up to 300,000 foreigners over 4 years.
The Republican Party of Switzerland was popular for a while but who has heard of them now?
The SVP now has similar anti-foreigner policies as the Republican Party had but runs the same risk that their single negative policy will consign them to the dustbins of history. A party needs positive policies to survive; how long can you keep painting the same picture?
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  #32  
Old 24.05.2011, 18:26
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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About the future of the SVP
I was reading about James Schwarzenbach who was a far-right Swiss politician, head of the Republican Party of Switzerland.
Schwarzenbach is chiefly known for his initiative on Überfremdung ("excess of foreigners") that was put to the vote in 1970. The referendum had a record turn-out (75%), with 45% of the votes supporting Schwarzenbach's proposal. The proposal, if accepted, would have meant that the Swiss government had to limit foreign workers to Switzerland to 10%, which at the point in time would have meant the deportation of up to 300,000 foreigners over 4 years.
The Republican Party of Switzerland was popular for a while but who has heard of them now?
The SVP now has similar anti-foreigner policies as the Republican Party had but runs the same risk that their single negative policy will consign them to the dustbins of history. A party needs positive policies to survive; how long can you keep painting the same picture?
Nicely put. But speaking on behalf of the minds of the OPs, they're comparing the 70s with today. There was no EU and that EU had no debt crisis. The circumstances have changed a little bit...and even in the 70s, EU citizens had no automatic right to just set up shop in CH.

Personally, I don't anticipate any changes...
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  #33  
Old 24.05.2011, 18:58
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Nicely put. But speaking on behalf of the minds of the OPs, they're comparing the 70s with today. There was no EU and that EU had no debt crisis. The circumstances have changed a little bit...and even in the 70s, EU citizens had no automatic right to just set up shop in CH.

Personally, I don't anticipate any changes...
The SVP is the one who wants "changes". But they always want changes into the negative, which means restrictions, limits, prohibitions, etc. They practically never have constructive proposal but only NO NO NO
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Old 24.05.2011, 19:02
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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A recent study, right along with Schneider-Ammann reveals that Switzerland within the next 20 years will not need less but FAR MORE immigrants in order to keep up work as required.
All projections that are this far into the future are total garbage and not worth anything. These studies can hardly even get anything close to right 6mths-2 years ahead.

They all fail for a simple reason - they completely ignore markets and human behaviour.
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Old 24.05.2011, 19:18
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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All projections that are this far into the future are total garbage and not worth anything. These studies can hardly even get anything close to right 6mths-2 years ahead.

They all fail for a simple reason - they completely ignore markets and human behaviour.
You may be right with your judgment in the longer term, but the markets for the foreseeable future demand more immigrants.
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Old 24.05.2011, 19:26
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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The SVP is the one who wants "changes". But they always want changes into the negative, which means restrictions, limits, prohibitions, etc. They practically never have constructive proposal but only NO NO NO
yes its tough on the progressives. But Switzerland is doing quite well compared to its neighbours, therefore it must be doing something right.
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Old 24.05.2011, 19:34
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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A recent study, right along with Schneider-Ammann reveals that Switzerland within the next 20 years will not need less but FAR MORE immigrants in order to keep up work as required.
But this is exactly the point.
All those extra people are going to have to live somewhere and send their children to school somewhere and will need transport and hospitals and what have you. For you and me that means higher rents, more congestion, more pollution, higher food prices, less green space etc. So the legitimate question is, is that projected growth really good news, or should policy makes be seeking ways of permitting the economy to prosper without calling for population growth (independently of where those people are coming from and whether or not they can or should integrate etc).

Or else can Switzerland maybe buy a piece of France or Germany to grow into?
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Old 24.05.2011, 19:52
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

I honestly don't know why we stay in a country that makes it very clear they want us out.

i think i'm going to ask my employer for a transfer and leave this place very soon.
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Old 24.05.2011, 19:54
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Toni Brunner said that the SVP wanted to achieve controlled migration ie along the lines of "control, limit, select".

Immigrants would thus have a job offer from Switzerland, can secure their own existence and be capable of integration. At the legislative level, the SVP could introduce a points system, as suggested by Lukas Reimann SVP-National with a parliamentary motion even though any restriction of immigration is contrary to free movement agreements with the EU.

More Swissinfo DE / Suedostschweiz DE

Crude EN translations here and here respectively

I wonder what is the response from SVP regarding this:
http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics...l?cid=30304170

400'000 people short...SVP - hate to break your bubble but it's time to get real! ...but please continue with your foreigner hating propaganda, and please don't mention that the foreigners makes this country tick...
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Old 24.05.2011, 19:58
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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yes its tough on the progressives. But Switzerland is doing quite well compared to its neighbours, therefore it must be doing something right.
So: Why change it then?
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