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  #61  
Old 25.05.2011, 01:12
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

The Swiss have all the good points of the EU with few of the negatives, so it would be in Swiss interests to avoid rocking the boat.
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  #62  
Old 25.05.2011, 01:13
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

Here's an interesting perspective:

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They (SVP) clearly support greater surveillance and regimentation of the populace, which, while ostensibly directed at foreigners, will affect everyone. Theirs is a message of fear. Meanwhile, this puts the SVP in direct conflict with Swiss business interests and ruling elites in general. In fact, the Swiss Business Federation, representing most of the country’s employers, is strongly in favor of further easing of restrictions on immigration, particularly from Bulgaria and Romania (soon to join the EU). Ideologically and practically they support the free movement of capital and labor. But the SVP says nothing about capitalism, remaining silent in the face of the recent debacle engulfing the Swiss banking industry. This suggests that the SVP’s sole purpose is to occupy the positions of power presently held by other parties. It is virulent in its opposition to the Social Democrats, whom it has specifically singled out as its target for removal from parliament.

While there’s a faint echo of Nazis fighting Communists in Germany 1932, the situation here bears little resemblance to that one. Switzerland is a rich country, business is humming along, and people have little to complain about, at least economically. One is tempted, therefore, to dismiss this all as a farce. Its effect on immigration is likely to be negligible. But when seeking to explain and oppose the rise of right-wing groups it is necessary to gauge their actual effects. The net effect of the SVP’s activity is to intensify social conflict and divert attention from the real sources of the problems confronting society. This explains why the apparent difference between the positions of the SVP and Swiss Business Federation conceal a deeper community of interest. Both benefit by exacerbating and manipulating divisions among the populace. Neither wants the Swiss people to unite in opposition to neoliberal policies or to the banks, insurance and chemical companies pursuing them.
http://sdonline.org/48/immigration-i...s-and-phobias/

I think that this is a couple of years old but its the same thing regurgitated year after year.
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  #63  
Old 25.05.2011, 01:19
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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The Swiss have all the good points of the EU with few of the negatives, so it would be in Swiss interests to avoid rocking the boat.
It of course IS in the interests of Switzerland, but the SVP for almost 20 years now, actually since the Bilaterals started, has continously tried to wreck the Bilaterals and to crash the whole program.
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  #64  
Old 25.05.2011, 01:29
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

For those interested there's always Secondas Plus:

the translation offered is poor- I prefer the original

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Wenn 28% der Bevölkerung ohne Stimmrecht sind, schadet es der Demokratie!

1.4 Millionen Menschen ohne Schweizer Pass leben zurzeit in der Schweiz. Die grosse Mehrheit besitzt eine Niederlassungsbewilligung, hat hier Wurzeln geschlagen, gedenkt hier zu leben. Es macht keinen Sinn, 28% der Bevölkerung dem demokratischen Prozess fernzuhalten. Das Stimm- und Wahlrecht für MigrantInnen ist längst überfällig, wir von den Second@s Plus setzen uns dafür ein.
http://www.secondos-plus.ch/index.php?id=home
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  #65  
Old 25.05.2011, 01:57
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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I saw it on TV, but I found this article:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/business...l?cid=28833064
If you read the article twice you realize that Swissinfo is presenting no studies of this delusional shortage.

on ICT:
Quote:
ICTswitzerland est l'organisation faîtière des principales associations suisses liées aux technologies de l’information et de la communication (TIC).
Quote:
ICTswitzerland se perçoit avant tout comme le porte-parole du secteur des TIC vis-à-vis de l’opinion publique, du monde politique et des administrations, ainsi que comme une plate-forme de synergie pour les idées et projets allant dans le sens des intérêts communs.
They basically lobby for the industry...how reliable??
BTW, like yourself I am a foreigner in CH but I insist on remaining neutral on issues like this. I constantly remind myself that Switzerland is the country of Swiss citizens; I'm not one.
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  #66  
Old 25.05.2011, 02:01
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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The Swiss have all the good points of the EU with few of the negatives, so it would be in Swiss interests to avoid rocking the boat.
Brussels was going to pressure them to either join the EU or the EEA or cancel the bilateral treaties as Van Rompuy expressed many times. To their advantage, a debt crisis struck the continent and CH is last on Brussels's agenda now.
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  #67  
Old 25.05.2011, 06:13
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

If the EU is the Titanic, then the SVP are the people in the half-empty lifeboat saying "let's get the out of here".
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  #68  
Old 25.05.2011, 10:38
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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If the EU is the Titanic, then the SVP are the people in the half-empty lifeboat saying "let's get the out of here".
If the EU were the Titanic, Switzerland would perish along because they're part of Europe.
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  #69  
Old 25.05.2011, 11:49
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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If the EU were the Titanic, Switzerland would perish along because they're part of Europe.
Depends on how deep the sea is, we got the mountains after all. That's why I welcome global warming, with rising sea levels we can finally get rid of our neighbours.
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  #70  
Old 25.05.2011, 11:51
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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It of course IS in the interests of Switzerland, but the SVP for almost 20 years now, actually since the Bilaterals started, has continously tried to wreck the Bilaterals and to crash the whole program.
There have been 3 referendums now on this topic & each time the pro-EU bilaterals won.

I know the SVP are not the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree but can anybody explain how they expect to grow their party by pushing policies which the majority of the electorate rejected (3 times).

Even if SVP were to succeed by some devious method to crash the whole program they will not gain supporters from the majority of the electorate who support the program; could turn out to be a Pyrrhic victory?
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  #71  
Old 25.05.2011, 11:54
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

This is a referendum too far for the SVP. They won on the minarets, and the export of of criminal elements, as these are marginal populist issues that don't have impact on daily life for most Swiss. But Switzerland needs immigration to maintain growth, and most Swiss recognise this (and will be reminded by employers' federations and economic forums). Remember that almost 60% of new immigrants are university educated, and CH needs them.

Anyway, I'm not sure that the SVP will be bothered too much when they lose, it's all part of their 'in your face' populist barnstorming strategy; constantly showing that their hearts are in the 'right' place.
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  #72  
Old 25.05.2011, 12:23
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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It's the market that regulates the whole thing, you can't stop growth, impossible...Switzerland acted way too slow in the past...and now they have to deal with it...so...selber schuld!!!

It's time for the housewives to go to work...
Maybe there are areas where the market should not be allowed to self regulate, if what an unregulated market would do would be to convert the whole country into an ugly megacity of concrete.
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  #73  
Old 25.05.2011, 12:24
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Brussels was going to pressure them to either join the EU or the EEA or cancel the bilateral treaties as Van Rompuy expressed many times. To their advantage, a debt crisis struck the continent and CH is last on Brussels's agenda now.
The debt crisis will go away within a year or two, along with increasing employment in the EU.
Demographics are harder to fix in Switzerland and takes longer.

The SVP has its eye on the 2011 election, not the one in 2031
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  #74  
Old 25.05.2011, 12:25
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

So the bottomline is.. if any of us are people planning on moving there.. to do so before this is approved by autumn?
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  #75  
Old 25.05.2011, 14:12
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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If you read the article twice you realize that Swissinfo is presenting no studies of this delusional shortage.

on ICT:



They basically lobby for the industry...how reliable??
BTW, like yourself I am a foreigner in CH but I insist on remaining neutral on issues like this. I constantly remind myself that Switzerland is the country of Swiss citizens; I'm not one.
The Swissinfo article has an obvious fault. They complain about the lack of IT personnel of the future. There may be a "rush" of young people into this field, so that there possibly will be too many IT-folks around, which means that people will be lacking in other fields (not enough electricians, not enough plumbers, not enough personnel for gastronomy and healthcare, and so on. There will be a lack of personnel even if the economy stagnates, as the CH-workforce is shrinking. But to define numbers or fields is far too early.
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  #76  
Old 25.05.2011, 14:19
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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So the bottomline is.. if any of us are people planning on moving there.. to do so before this is approved by autumn?
A) they have not yet even ironed out what their initiative may contain
B) they first of all have to collect signatures to place the initative
C) they have no chance to have the vote before 2012
D) it most likely will NOT be approved but rejected
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  #77  
Old 25.05.2011, 14:29
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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A) they have not yet even ironed out what their initiative may contain
B) they first of all have to collect signatures to place the initative
C) they have no chance to have the vote before 2012
D) it most likely will NOT be approved but rejected
A lot will depend on timing, currently the influx of foreigners, even if largely welcomed individually/culturally (they are the good foreigners, after all ) is just a bit too much for many Swiss. If the situation calms down in the rest of the EU with an economic recovery then Schengen will again be appreciated as the convenient and efficient labour supply it is. But then again, with a large influx of willing workers CH could suffer from the same problem as Germany or the UK in that the incentive to reintegrate less willing locals back into the workforce from unemployment or social welfare is just too low.. And I think low unemployment is an important contribution to social peace and lower crime as well as the basic solidarity of tax payers for the truly needy.
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  #78  
Old 25.05.2011, 15:13
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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The Swissinfo article has an obvious fault. They complain about the lack of IT personnel of the future. There may be a "rush" of young people into this field, so that there possibly will be too many IT-folks around, which means that people will be lacking in other fields (not enough electricians, not enough plumbers, not enough personnel for gastronomy and healthcare, and so on. There will be a lack of personnel even if the economy stagnates, as the CH-workforce is shrinking. But to define numbers or fields is far too early.
But Wollis, the population shrinkage isn't exclusive to CH. It is more severe in Asia i.e Singapore Japan & even China. Japan has time after time rejected any ideas of having to import skilled labour to fill in the gaps.
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Old 25.05.2011, 15:24
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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A lot will depend on timing, currently the influx of foreigners, even if largely welcomed individually/culturally (they are the good foreigners, after all ) is just a bit too much for many Swiss.
I have read a lot lately about problems with bad foreigners in Austria.. hope that will never come to happen in Switzerland, but in that case, I believe Swiss would rather prevent more than correct.
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  #80  
Old 25.05.2011, 15:36
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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But Wollis, the population shrinkage isn't exclusive to CH. It is more severe in Asia i.e Singapore Japan & even China. Japan has time after time rejected any ideas of having to import skilled labour to fill in the gaps.
True, part of the problem here are the employers who demand people with the precise skillsets they need rather than being prepared to retrain people where this is possible. Especially in the IT sector the reqiuired skills profiles change quickly so this can lead to a rapid turnover of personnel with nobody prepared to take on board or retrain those who have fallen out of the system and society at large having to bear the costs of that. Restricting availability of people can force employers to think a bit more long term and be a bit more creative. For example by creating more flexibly working environments that are firendly to women with young children, or walking the talk when it comes to making more use of mature workers, or just remembering that employees are actually human beings and not just human resources.
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