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  #81  
Old 25.05.2011, 14:38
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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A lot will depend on timing, currently the influx of foreigners, even if largely welcomed individually/culturally (they are the good foreigners, after all ) is just a bit too much for many Swiss. If the situation calms down in the rest of the EU with an economic recovery then Schengen will again be appreciated as the convenient and efficient labour supply it is. But then again, with a large influx of willing workers CH could suffer from the same problem as Germany or the UK in that the incentive to reintegrate less willing locals back into the workforce from unemployment or social welfare is just too low.. And I think low unemployment is an important contribution to social peace and lower crime as well as the basic solidarity of tax payers for the truly needy.

A presume that some of the top-strategists of the SVP hope for
- less social peace
- growing unemployment
- growing crime

but of course not all. Mr Peter Spuhler in an interview with the Tages Anzeiger was clearly in favour of the Bilaterals, in favour of the Personenfreizügigkeit and in favour of Schengen/Dublin, even if he advocates some renogiations. According to him, the Personenfreizügigkeit helped Switzerland to get over the years of financial crisis and to stabilize the social network. Mr Spuhler is the defacto-leader of the SVP in Eastern Switzerland (Thurgau, St. Gallen, Appenzell) .
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  #82  
Old 25.05.2011, 14:45
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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I have read a lot lately about problems with bad foreigners in Austria.. hope that will never come to happen in Switzerland, but in that case, I believe Swiss would rather prevent more than correct.
What I meant was that there is a consensus in CH across all parties that the current influx of foreigners is economically benefitial and since most are from neighbouring countries, in Zürich mostly Germany, there aren't many problems in integration. Hence my emphasis of good to highlight this consensus. The Swiss seem to struggle much more with the last wave of immigrants than the current one, as one SVP member put it "We welcome the highly qualified Germans and they don't cause the current problems, it's the replaced ex-Yugoslavians that don't leave that do".

Personally I think that the SVP doesn't seriously try to leave Schengen, they just try to put more pressure on authorities (SP-dominated) to force the repatriation of ex-Yugoslavs which, also according to the EU I read yesterday, should not receive asylum anymore. But who knows... it's all politics, real intentions are as always a bit shady. Currently they're just trying to build up support of the notion that Switzerland should regain their control over immigration which shouldn't be hard.
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  #83  
Old 25.05.2011, 14:46
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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A presume that some of the top-strategists of the SVP hope for
- less social peace
- growing unemployment
- growing crime

but of course not all. Mr Peter Spuhler in an interview with the Tages Anzeiger was clearly in favour of the Bilaterals, in favour of the Personenfreizügigkeit and in favour of Schengen/Dublin, even if he advocates some renogiations. According to him, the Personenfreizügigkeit helped Switzerland to get over the years of financial crisis and to stabilize the social network. Mr Spuhler is the defacto-leader of the SVP in Eastern Switzerland (Thurgau, St. Gallen, Appenzell) .
Spuhler is a good man and one who has the respect and admiration of the man in the street comparable to no other politician I know, at least as far as my crude observations of the people around me go.

He is also somebody who dares to question the status quo and go against many of the business mantras that other unthinkingly accept as unchangeable truths. Many have tried to emulate his style but few have succeeded.
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  #84  
Old 25.05.2011, 15:03
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Personally I think that the SVP doesn't seriously try to leave Schengen, they just try to put more pressure on authorities (SP-dominated) to force the repatriation of ex-Yugoslavs which, also according to the EU I read yesterday, should not receive asylum anymore. But who knows... it's all politics, real intentions are as always a bit shady. Currently they're just trying to build up support of the notion that Switzerland should regain their control over immigration which shouldn't be hard.
As long as they don't welcome unpleasant immigrants to gain votes (as they do here), it's alright with me (for now). But as you said, it's all politics, anyway!
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  #85  
Old 25.05.2011, 15:22
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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What I meant was that there is a consensus in CH across all parties that the current influx of foreigners is economically benefitial and since most are from neighbouring countries, in Zürich mostly Germany, there aren't many problems in integration. Hence my emphasis of good to highlight this consensus. The Swiss seem to struggle much more with the last wave of immigrants than the current one, as one SVP member put it "We welcome the highly qualified Germans and they don't cause the current problems, it's the replaced ex-Yugoslavians that don't leave that do".

Personally I think that the SVP doesn't seriously try to leave Schengen, they just try to put more pressure on authorities (SP-dominated) to force the repatriation of ex-Yugoslavs which, also according to the EU I read yesterday, should not receive asylum anymore. But who knows... it's all politics, real intentions are as always a bit shady. Currently they're just trying to build up support of the notion that Switzerland should regain their control over immigration which shouldn't be hard.
> ex Yugoslavia :
A) let's be realistic, we and others inherited a good deals of the incredible mess of the Empire of Marshal Tito . No other group of immigrants, neither Turks, nor Iraqi, nor Vietnamese, nor Tamil (etc brought with them as many problems as them.
B) BUT I just this morning checked some COOP outlets and realized that quite many outlet-managers at Coop are Kosovari. And what I see myself, for example here in this house, is that the integration of the ex-Yugoslavs is well enroute. It took some 15 years, true.
C) most ex-Yugoslavs have full rights to stay here, are working here and many have children at school here, so that they canNOT be "repatriated"
D) The countries of ex-Yugoslavia are no longer regarded as countries with the right to ask for asylum
E) Most asylum-seekers of ex-Yugoslavia have either been repatriated long ago, or become integrated with the right to stay indefinitely, with work, etc

So, here again, the SVPler beat a dead horse

But, since Messrs Sarkozy and Berlusconi have declared to want Schengen and Dublin to be renogiated, everybody, not just here, wants to jump onto the bandwagon. There of course ought to be more flexibility. All Schengen-countries should have the right to re-introduce full border-controls in some sectors of their borders for up to six weeks.
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  #86  
Old 25.05.2011, 15:34
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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E) Most asylum-seekers of ex-Yugoslavia have either been repatriated long ago, or become integrated with the right to stay indefinitely, with work, etc
So, here again, the SVPler beat a dead horse
Of course, it's wishful thinking, I don't think that they would return either, after all most procedures have been dropped already in favour of the asylum seekers because it took too long, it's way too late to debate this now. But there are still a lot of new asylum seekers from Serbia mainly, the largest group of asylum seekers in Germany now apparently, which came here with the visa free travel for Serbians. That these should be swiftly refused as is now EU policy is self-evident me thinks.
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  #87  
Old 25.05.2011, 16:32
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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As long as they don't welcome unpleasant immigrants to gain votes (as they do here), it's alright with me (for now). But as you said, it's all politics, anyway!
What in Hungary are "unpleasant immigrants" ?
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  #88  
Old 25.05.2011, 16:52
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Of course, it's wishful thinking, I don't think that they would return either, after all most procedures have been dropped already in favour of the asylum seekers because it took too long, it's way too late to debate this now. But there are still a lot of new asylum seekers from Serbia mainly, the largest group of asylum seekers in Germany now apparently, which came here with the visa free travel for Serbians. That these should be swiftly refused as is now EU policy is self-evident me thinks.

The countries of ex-Yugoslavia for almost a decade are not longer regarded as countries from where people have to flee for political reasons, so that people trying to get asylum are usually rejected by the Swiss authorities.

Beside the point that most ex-Yugoslavs in Switzerland did not come to Switzerland as refugees anyway
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  #89  
Old 25.05.2011, 20:36
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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The Swissinfo article has an obvious fault. They complain about the lack of IT personnel of the future. There may be a "rush" of young people into this field, so that there possibly will be too many IT-folks around, which means that people will be lacking in other fields (not enough electricians, not enough plumbers, not enough personnel for gastronomy and healthcare, and so on. There will be a lack of personnel even if the economy stagnates, as the CH-workforce is shrinking. But to define numbers or fields is far too early.
About "There may be a "rush" of young people into this field"
problem is that there is not the infrastructure available here to support that; it will take years for the infrastructure to be built up to handle more young people.
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  #90  
Old 25.05.2011, 20:45
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Maybe there are areas where the market should not be allowed to self regulate, if what an unregulated market would do would be to convert the whole country into an ugly megacity of concrete.
anyway, it's up to the Swiss themselves if they want to regulate the market or not...the foreigners have no saying in this...but I assume that most companies incl. SVP controlled ones wants to grow so they have to deal with the situation.

So SVP can choose between:

1. trying to regulate the market => no growth (most unlikely)
2. Outsource to other countries (would partly help, but since Switzerland is a service country and not a heavy industrial one, and want to retain the "Swiss Quality"-stamp, this is most unlikely)
3. Only take in "Grenzgengers", which would lead to loss of taxes and consumptions...most unlikely
4. Long-term, Increase the number of universities
5. Mid-Long-term, make it easier for women to have family and be able to work
6. Import qualified work force...
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  #91  
Old 25.05.2011, 20:49
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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If you read the article twice you realize that Swissinfo is presenting no studies of this delusional shortage.

on ICT:



They basically lobby for the industry...how reliable??
BTW, like yourself I am a foreigner in CH but I insist on remaining neutral on issues like this. I constantly remind myself that Switzerland is the country of Swiss citizens; I'm not one.
weird post...

I'm not taking any side, just sent a reference...if this is "delusional" or not, I have no idea...but if you're working in this sector you know very well that it's VERY difficult to find enough qualified people in this country. AND if the growth will continue like this, it will probably be a huge issue...
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Old 25.05.2011, 20:51
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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If the EU is the Titanic, then the SVP are the people in the half-empty lifeboat saying "let's get the out of here".
isn't quite naive to believe that Switzerland would do well if EU would collapse?

Reality =>
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  #93  
Old 25.05.2011, 20:54
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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They basically lobby for the industry...how reliable??
Since when has Swissinfo been a reliable news source?
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  #94  
Old 25.05.2011, 21:00
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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isn't quite naive to believe that Switzerland would do well if EU would collapse?

Reality =>
Yes and no.. the EU exports twice as much to CH than vice versa. Switzerland is one of the biggest importer of European goods, the dependency is effectively much higher on their side. But of course, if the EU goes down, so does Switzerland.
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Old 25.05.2011, 21:08
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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About "There may be a "rush" of young people into this field"
problem is that there is not the infrastructure available here to support that; it will take years for the infrastructure to be built up to handle more young people.
No, the infrastructure is sufficient and handles ALL young people around. It is a matter of choice. Over the decades, numerous profession were in high fashion and young people were told that this or that profession was in high demand, AND when they three or four years later came out of education there were no jobs available. Electronics was among these professions and the same happened. BUT, indeed, many youngster now see the lack of IT personnel and will take their conclusion. The professional schools are there, a question of course is whether the employers are willing to take on additional apprentices. IF however this happens, the IT business will take away people from other branches who then will lack the personnel in question. We here do not speak about weeks or months of course but about years.

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  #96  
Old 25.05.2011, 21:14
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

I don't think there is generally insufficient infrastructure if some Universities can have up to 40% foreign students (mostly German), there simply aren't that many Swiss youngsters. :-)
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Old 25.05.2011, 21:26
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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No, the infrastructure is sufficient and handles ALL young people around. It is a matter of choice. Over the decades, numerous profession were in high fashion and young people were told that this or that profession was in high demand, AND when they three or four years later came out of education there were no jobs available. Electronics was among these professions and the same happened. BUT, indeed, many youngster now see the lack of IT personnel and will take their conclusion. The professional school are there, a question of course is whether the employers are willing to take on additional apprentices. IF however this happens, the IT business will take away people from other branches who then will lack the personnel in question. We here do not speak about weeks or months of course but about years.
Sorry Wolli but you cannot magic competent IT instructors out of thin air. It takes time to ramp up.
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Old 25.05.2011, 21:31
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Sorry Wolli but you cannot magic competent IT instructors out of thin air. It takes time to ramp up.
I think ETH does a good job, and there are loads of local IT startups at the moment, Technopark comes to mind. I have 3 friends who have studied something else who are now all freelancing in IT support, webdesign and such. The massive influx of foreign IT specialists is just because that field is growing so massively, European Google HQ and others.
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Old 25.05.2011, 21:46
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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I don't think there is generally insufficient infrastructure if some Universities can have up to 40% foreign students (mostly German), there simply aren't that many Swiss youngsters. :-)
and what is needed are NOT university-graduates but youngsters who are educated in electronics both in theory and in practice. But as you say, you cannot educate youngster who were never born.
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Old 25.05.2011, 21:55
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

The problem is that born or not, few people anywhere have a good engineering education anymore.

I work with some great guys (albeit hard to find anymore), and even they learned stupid stuff at the ETH such as dynamic memory allocation/deallocation in interrupt routines!

Hell, I wrote all the control programs for our CNC machines as I was the only engineer who knew how to use a manual mill!

Education is FAR too limited these days.

Tom
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