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  #121  
Old 26.05.2011, 08:57
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Yeah, but that is exactly one of the deeper problems. Nobody is willing to invest, they only want to profit.... So round and round it goes..
I don't see that it's all doom and gloom.. Swiss Unis are no worse than German or other European Universities, there's a multitude of ways how to get a professional education, Universities of Applied Sciences are growing every year (possible to attend after apprenticeship - professional bac.) and so on... Switzerland's growth is just too fast to manage by locals only, there are no unemployed well-qualified people and companies struggle to hire great people for the salaries they're willing to pay..

So we're back to the initial topic - either growth & population growth or curbed growth & stagnating population.
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  #122  
Old 26.05.2011, 09:59
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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I do not know why people think that all imported labor settles for less salary-wise then the local labor, this total nonsense when it comes academics...I know many Indians in Switzerland and they have same or more as the local Swiss...I know I had when I came here...which was of course not very popular...

Second, the universities has no issues at all filling their IT-spots...

The problem is, the universities in Switzerland cannot alone meet the demand of the market...

IT is very attractive engineering compared to e.g. mechanical or electrical...CS IT engineer for instance has 1.5 to 2 times higher salary than for instance an ABB one...

Sorry, but your argument does not hold...
No, on the contrary. In the 80s for example, if you saw some young guy in an expensive car, the odds where that either he had a rich dad or if you could discount that possibility, that he was some whizz kid with a successful IT startup raking in tons of cash. One of the kids I hung around with at school back in the UK became insanely rich by programming and doing IT consulting. He started his first company while he was still at school and traded under his brother's name because he was legally still a minor. He later made so much money that he could afford to drop out of university. He finally sold his company to one of the big guys at the peak of the dot.com bubble, took home a stash of cash and is now leading the good life. Today you don't see that. That rich kid is more likely to be raking in the cash through some job in financial derivatives. The generation who are a bit younger than that observe their succesful peers and take them as a role models. When I was a kid at school about half the class dreamt of becoming some engineering whizz kid and that's why maths and the sciences where the lessons at school where we worked hardest and learnt the most. When I look at the kids of that age today you have to look long and hard to find one that will even contemplate engineeing but loads want to go into finance and management.
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  #123  
Old 26.05.2011, 10:09
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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A) the universities in Switzerland could do more if they modernised their ideas
Depends what you call "modernise".

Industry often bemoans the fact that university don't teach the particular tools and environments they want, but spend more time looking at stuff from a theoretical perspective.

I know this from my own interview experinece. Many managers are incapable of understanding that if I know one OOP language, I can learn any other in 24 hours because I have a solid understanding of the theory behind them. They may lack that understanding and have struggled to learn that one langauge and would be challenged to learn any other. And because they want more people like themselves they tell the universities to modernise.
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  #124  
Old 26.05.2011, 11:33
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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Depends what you call "modernise".

Industry often bemoans the fact that university don't teach the particular tools and environments they want, but spend more time looking at stuff from a theoretical perspective.

I know this from my own interview experinece. Many managers are incapable of understanding that if I know one OOP language, I can learn any other in 24 hours because I have a solid understanding of the theory behind them. They may lack that understanding and have struggled to learn that one langauge and would be challenged to learn any other. And because they want more people like themselves they tell the universities to modernise.

I don't know programming language You are using primarily, but in my field (J2EE), language skills are far too little to be considered OK for position. You need at least few years of expertise, knowing pitfalls of architecture (and every one has some), toolsets, libraries, standards and so on. Some are platform-independent, some are not. If You are super-talented, then yes, You can adapt very quickly (almost) as You say. But most folks out there need some time, even very good ones. So the expectations of real hands-on experience is a good one, as a precaution. How long would it take You to start working efficiently in functional language like Scala out-of-blue? I seriously doubt 24 hours would be enough...
This debate is highly subjective. For example by my opinion the sole purpose of University (at least technical one) is to prepare one for real-life challenges. If after 5 years of study graduate is not able to perform as well as somebody who worked 1 year in some company doing what graduate studied, then I say Unis fail in their very purpose. I also learned bunch of crap that I will never ever use, and I knew it the moment I saw it in lecture (loads of physics, electroengineering, some parts of math, even parts of IT theory). I was considering dropping out of Uni because of that, but college life kept me there (and I don't regret it for some reasons). I am not saying Unis should not provide theoretical background, but they fail to catch up with practical aspects of real life challenges. But I haven't studied a swiss one, so I cannot judge how good they are.
How much team work, communication, project&team management, and other soft skills are lectured? These things are equally important as hard skills, no matter in which field You are. Nobody wants in their team a genius that acts unpredictably, is out of control or it is a challenge to get him to do stuff that project needs, but he doesn't like doing them.
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  #125  
Old 26.05.2011, 13:33
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

I would argue that Universities are right to stay highly theoretical because what they should teach is approaches and methodologies rather than just the language/technology.

There are plenty of resources now to learn various programming languages. The burden of learning the specifics of the languages should lie on the student, with the professors teaching concepts that can then be applied universally or that inspire new ideas to the field.

What that means for the student however is that they have to add learning more languages and developing stuff in their own time to their university schedule if they want to impress a future employer.

my 2 cents.
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  #126  
Old 26.05.2011, 13:50
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Re: SVP's latest initiative on migration threatens EU agreements

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When I look at the kids of that age today you have to look long and hard to find one that will even contemplate engineeing but loads want to go into finance and management.
When I was going to college in the States, I did about 2-3 semesters of engineering and had friends who were doing phDs. When they graduated they were making maybe 120k but rarely more. A few kids studied finance, made it to NYC, and I know of two who started at 175k out of college (90k base salary+rest in bonuses). Engineering then no longer made sense so I ended up switching majors. Now I wish I just finished my degree in Eng instead of finance.
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