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Old 05.06.2015, 12:15
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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While I don't know how CH construction workplace safety compares internationally, it seems fair to assume they are at least OK. So let's try to gain some perspective on the Qatar numbers.

A brochure of the Baumeisterverband says
- 300'000 jobs in Switzerland in the construction sector
- in recent years 30-70 deaths annually (I'll use 50 below)
- 150 deaths in 1995 on 300k jobs
- 420 deaths in 1975 [number of jobs unknown])
With 2 million jobs that would mean 320 deaths a year based on current standards, about 2'200 deaths by 2022 (7 years).

Death toll in Qatar should be expected to be considerably higher than here because:
- availability of medical care is probably considerably below swiss standards, even if Qatar tried their best
- buildings are higher, risk of a deadly fall much higher
- heat causes much more stress

Plus, perhaps, lower standards on work safety. If they had the swiss standards present in 1995 it would mean 7000 deaths

In this light, 4000 deaths really don't look really horrible, and definitely not as bad as the ITUC report underlying the WP article make it seem to be. Granted, one would wish the toll was lower, but some things can't be prevented. In my mind the outcry with respect to the death toll seems quite overblown.

Another thing are general working conditions and freedom of movement, perhaps human rights in general. But people seem to not care much about those, they're barely mentioned in the respective articles and posts.
You are right in the sense that quoting figures on their own may be inaccurate and don't show the full picture. It is still an unacceptably high figure though.

I'm not sure that higher buildings increases the risk of death. Falling 2 metres can be enough to be fatal. Someone would be equally dead from 20m or 200m. Obviously, taller buildings need more workers.
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  #442  
Old 05.06.2015, 12:27
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I thought the trigger was when a US media company was asked to pay a huge bribe by Fifa people some years ago, they reported it to the FBI.
Even when US companies were not directly involved the US banks were, the 10 million for Jack Warner went through a New York bank which would anyway be checked for possible money laundering.

BTW, Warner is now reported as claiming Sepp interfered in the Trinidad and Tobago govt. Elections.
Hard to know why he would?
Another newspaper claims it all started due to an FBI investigation into
Russian Mafia which ran across FIFA.

The corruption is so widespread that probably this FIFA investigation had many fathers.

For the people who asked why is the US involved when they are not interested in football. The answer is that this about MAJOR CORRUPTION not football.
For example, one US person alone has agreed to pay $151 Million to settle his part of this, this is MAJOR CORRUPTION!!

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Generally, they get promised a certain wage and travel to the Middle East with that wage in mind. Out of this they need to pay their travel expenses.

But, when they arrive, their passports are taken away and they get paid a tiny fraction of what they were promised.
They spend most of their time trying to pay back their travel expenses to the criminals organising their work and travel and are trapped having neither the finance or passport to travel home.
And if they are tempted to run away then their families are threatened.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 05.06.2015 at 12:50. Reason: merging successive posts
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  #443  
Old 05.06.2015, 18:47
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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You are right in the sense that quoting figures on their own may be inaccurate and don't show the full picture. It is still an unacceptably high figure though.
What's your suggestion for a remedy?
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I'm not sure that higher buildings increases the risk of death. Falling 2 metres can be enough to be fatal. Someone would be equally dead from 20m or 200m. Obviously, taller buildings need more workers.
I'm fine with assuming, for practical purposes, that anything above 20m is deadly. But consider:

Two thirds of all newly built swiss buildings are single family homes, where my guess for typical height is around 10m, so there's a fair chance for survival, especially if you hit raw earth or sand.

Around here rather few multi-floor buildings are higher than 5-6 floors, that's about 20m. For these, half of all falls happen from single-digit heights. If a building is 100m high only 20% of all falls will be less than 20m (assuming a fall is similarly likely at all heights, not sure if that holds).

And there's also the danger of dropping stuff. Since maximum falling speed is reached around 200m, deadliness keeps increasing with height.
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  #444  
Old 05.06.2015, 21:01
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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I'm fine with assuming, for practical purposes, that anything above 20m is deadly. But consider:

Two thirds of all newly built swiss buildings are single family homes, where my guess for typical height is around 10m, so there's a fair chance for survival, especially if you hit raw earth or sand.

Around here rather few multi-floor buildings are higher than 5-6 floors, that's about 20m. For these, half of all falls happen from single-digit heights. If a building is 100m high only 20% of all falls will be less than 20m (assuming a fall is similarly likely at all heights, not sure if that holds).

And there's also the danger of dropping stuff. Since maximum falling speed is reached around 200m, deadliness keeps increasing with height.

You really are skirting around the issue, aren't you?

Forced slave labour with almost total disregard for safety doesn't result in many deaths in the Swiss building trade as the Swiss generally only build small single family homes.

WTH?
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  #445  
Old 05.06.2015, 22:06
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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... for typical height is around 10m, so there's a fair chance for survival, especially if you hit raw earth or sand.
LOL.

Why don't you try falling from 10m a couple of times and tell us how you got on.

Seriously, not lethal? You'd be very lucky and if you survive suggest you by a Euromillions ticket...
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  #446  
Old 06.06.2015, 06:55
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

Sorry to butt in, but there's a very thorough analysis of the statistical claims in the "Qatar migrant worker deaths" story in this BBC podcast, which aired yesterday. The first 8 minutes of the podcast are about this topic.

If the above link doesn't work, then go here and find the episode from 5th June 2015.


<spoiler_alert>Basically, it seems that the claims of thousands of fatalities due to the World Cup in Qatar don't bear any serious scrutiny.</spoiler>

Last edited by Jern; 06.06.2015 at 07:41. Reason: Corrected links
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  #447  
Old 06.06.2015, 14:44
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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LOL.

Why don't you try falling from 10m a couple of times and tell us how you got on.

Seriously, not lethal? You'd be very lucky and if you survive suggest you by a Euromillions ticket...
Maybe he's thinking ten metres means ten FEET.
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  #448  
Old 06.06.2015, 17:59
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838

Interesting article regarding migrant deaths and that very misleading picture posted earlier. I thought this was particularly interesting.

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The point officials are making is that there are about half a million Indian workers in Qatar, and about 250 deaths per year - and this, in their view, is not a cause for concern. In fact, Indian government data suggests that back home in India you would expect a far higher proportion to die each year - not 250, but 1,000 in any group of 500,000 25-30-year-old men. Even in the UK, an average of 300 for every half a million men in this age group die each year.
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  #449  
Old 06.06.2015, 23:34
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-33019838

Interesting article regarding migrant deaths and that very misleading picture posted earlier. I thought this was particularly interesting.
Yes this informative BBC Web page is a summary of the More Or Less radio programme that Jern posted above.

Terrible seeing Barcelona's strip tonight with 'QATAR' emblazoned when for years and years they had no sponsor and paid UNICEF to have its name.on there shirts. How times have changed.
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  #450  
Old 06.06.2015, 23:42
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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You really are skirting around the issue, aren't you?

Forced slave labour with almost total disregard for safety doesn't result in many deaths in the Swiss building trade as the Swiss generally only build small single family homes.

WTH?
Try reading. From my first post:
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Another thing are general working conditions and freedom of movement, perhaps human rights in general. But people seem to not care much about those, they're barely mentioned in the respective articles and posts.
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  #451  
Old 07.06.2015, 08:53
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

Good, so we've agreed it's human rights abuse and appalling working conditions and not the height of buildings being built that is causing mistreatment and deaths?
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  #452  
Old 07.06.2015, 19:29
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

Going back to Blatter:

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Put all that tradition in a pot, the mercenaries, the banking secrecy, and the village club laws, mix for a couple of centuries, and what do you get? An opportunistic financial sector which has made billions for Switzerland, partly through attracting the cash of despots, drug barons and tax dodgers, and a cosy home for bloated multi-million-dollar businesses masquerading as not-for-profit sporting associations.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33023417
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  #453  
Old 07.06.2015, 19:33
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

How does it benefit Switzerland to have these organisations that pay zero taxes ???
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  #454  
Old 07.06.2015, 20:03
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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How does it benefit Switzerland to have these organisations that pay zero taxes ???
The money is kept in Swiss banks.
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Old 07.06.2015, 20:19
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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The money is kept in Swiss banks.
and spent on Swiss watches.
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  #456  
Old 07.06.2015, 20:26
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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and spent on Swiss watches.
And most of those 450 FIFA staff probably don't shop at Lidl.
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Old 07.06.2015, 20:32
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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The money is kept in Swiss banks.
Is it? The FBI papers seems to show it is mostly in US banks?

Anyway they have to lend it to the SNB at negative rates
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  #458  
Old 07.06.2015, 22:10
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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LOL.

Why don't you try falling from 10m a couple of times and tell us how you got on.

Seriously, not lethal? You'd be very lucky and if you survive suggest you by a Euromillions ticket...
Germany in "Arbeitsunfallgeschehen 2011" reports 1472 cases of "falling off of roofs, terraces, glass roofs, attics, and Dachlauf". 16 were deadly.

But obviously people will believe what they want to believe.
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  #459  
Old 07.06.2015, 22:35
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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And most of those 450 FIFA staff probably don't shop at Lidl.
Do you know if you mix the letters in the words FIFA and LIDL, you get the word FIDDLE.

(well that's not strictly true but then what is with FIFA?)
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Old 07.06.2015, 22:59
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Re: Mr Joseph Sepp Bellend Blatter - FIFA corruption

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While I don't know how CH construction workplace safety compares internationally, it seems fair to assume they are at least OK. So let's try to gain some perspective on the Qatar numbers.

A brochure of the Baumeisterverband says
- 300'000 jobs in Switzerland in the construction sector
- in recent years 30-70 deaths annually (I'll use 50 below)
- 150 deaths in 1995 on 300k jobs
- 420 deaths in 1975 [number of jobs unknown])
With 2 million jobs that would mean 320 deaths a year based on current standards, about 2'200 deaths by 2022 (7 years).

Death toll in Qatar should be expected to be considerably higher than here because:
- availability of medical care is probably considerably below swiss standards, even if Qatar tried their best
- buildings are higher, risk of a deadly fall much higher
- heat causes much more stress

Plus, perhaps, lower standards on work safety. If they had the swiss standards present in 1995 it would mean 7000 deaths

In this light, 4000 deaths really don't look really horrible, and definitely not as bad as the ITUC report underlying the WP article make it seem to be. Granted, one would wish the toll was lower, but some things can't be prevented. In my mind the outcry with respect to the death toll seems quite overblown.

Another thing are general working conditions and freedom of movement, perhaps human rights in general. But people seem to not care much about those, they're barely mentioned in the respective articles and posts.
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Germany in "Arbeitsunfallgeschehen 2011" reports 1472 cases of "falling off of roofs, terraces, glass roofs, attics, and Dachlauf". 16 were deadly.

But obviously people will believe what they want to believe.
So 320 deaths a year in Switzerland and 16 (in Germany) were were due to falls; say 5% if they were all Swiss or probably more like 0.5% here. What are we trying to prove again?
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