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-   -   Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/115404-swiss-women-earn-41-percent-less-than-men.html)

mirfield 01.06.2011 11:12

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PaddyG (Post 1214253)
Well, that's obvious isn't it?. They work 41% less. ;)

Hey, hey, hey. That's just wrong.

They work just the same as men.




They just add 41% less value.

Guest 01.06.2011 11:13

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
HERE some other studies. Stating the difference is 9.4%
Established by BASS (Office for work- and social-political studies)

Phil_MCR 01.06.2011 11:16

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1214536)
Female voting rights were approved on the Federal level in 1970 and introduced within a year.

The exception, Appenzell Innerrhoden, only has 15'000 inhabitants, and so is not too relevant. Your wording "all women" therefore is rubbish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1214395)
surely you mean 20? All women in Switzerland finally had a vote only in 1990.

So can someone confirm when the last time there was a vote which Swiss nationals could not partake in based solely on their gender?

ullainga seems to say this was pre-1990 whereas Wolli says it was earlier. I'm not sure if it is ullainga's wording which is "rubbish" or Wolli's logic.

Tilia 01.06.2011 11:21

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
What always strikes me in Switzerland (and elsewhere) is how women and families claim "it's not worth for the woman to work because her salary just barely covers the cost for the child-care".

This to me is a huge FAIL.

The biggest problem for women and having kids, with regards to salaries, is that they loose touch with their profession. When they want to return to work as the kids are older, it is usually impossible for them to find a high paying job in the trade they started out their career in. They end up taking low-paying assistant jobs instead.

So on a life-time perspective, it is a very sound investment to continue working when you have children even if you don't earn much bottom line. Because in the long-term you will increase your earing power substantially by doing this.

See it as an investment for the future, same way you would e.g. invest in an MBA.

amogles 01.06.2011 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Treverus (Post 1214141)
No, it doesnt say this at all.

1)worse paying is not more insecure. How do you jump to that conclusion? It only means that Swiss females are on average less high educated or work in jobs that pay on average less. The educated part specifically means "education an employer is willing to pay for". And from my experience this is entirely true and I cannot blame the employers alone on it: Swiss society - and this includes the 50% females - is still set up in the way that you are supposed to have a small family and a small house with a small garden. As a man, you go to school and learn something that first and most importantly should be able to support a family and then it should maybe interest you as well. If you are female you go to university and have some fun till you manage to catch your banker/doctor/...
No, not all Swiss are like this, but enough to ....

This is definitely a big part of the problem. When I studied engineering at ETH we had three girls in our year of almost 200 students.

If you look at some of the soft courses at university you'll probably see the opposite. It seems to be socially acceptable for girls to go to university to do the stuff they like and that they find entertaining or interesting while boys are expected to do the tough stuff that gives job security later. As long as you can't break through that mindset everything else (including quotas and positive discrimination) is just rearranging the deckchairs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 1214570)
So can someone confirm when the last time there was a vote which Swiss nationals could not partake in based solely on their gender?

ullainga seems to say this was pre-1990 whereas Wolli says it was earlier. I'm not sure if it is ullainga's wording which is "rubbish" or Wolli's logic.

Depends whether you are looking at national votes or cantonal votes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tilia (Post 1214590)
What always strikes me in Switzerland (and elsewhere) is how women and families claim "it's not worth for the woman to work because her salary just barely covers the cost for the child-care".

This to me is a huge FAIL.

The biggest problem for women and having kids, with regards to salaries, is that they loose touch with their profession. When they want to return to work as the kids are older, it is usually impossible for them to find a high paying job in the trade they started out their career in. They end up taking low-paying assistant jobs instead.

So on a life-time perspective, it is a very sound investment to continue working when you have children even if you don't earn much bottom line. Because in the long-term you will increase your earing power substantially by doing this.

See it as an investment for the future, same way you would e.g. invest in an MBA.

I am not sure if that's as simple as you suggest. At least in my company the managers work pretty hard. That means they often don't come home until late at night, or they frequently fly to some customer location halfway across the globe to calm down an unhappy client or fix some problems, and they even check their work emails from home and during vacations and if urgent will take some actions there and then, which can be quite disruptive to family life. If you're looking for an 8 to 5 kind of job so you can pick up the kids etc then you are simply not going to considered for that promotion, no matter how good the quality of that work.

I believe careers and families don't mix. The only way to get more women into top jobs is to convince their husbands to stay at home and handle the family side. That's problem for society and social norms. But it's not insurmountable. I have a friend in Germany whose wife is the director of a highly succesfuil law firm. He has a part time job in a printing shop which is probaly poorly paid but defineityl something he can leave at work when he goes home, and he looks after the kids. He is very happy about the arrangement.

ullainga 01.06.2011 12:39

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1214536)
The exception, Appenzell Innerrhoden, only has 15'000 inhabitants, and so is not too relevant. Your wording "all women" therefore is rubbish.

No it's not. Before 1990, some women in switzerland (about half the population of Appenzell Innerrhoden, who I think would not be happy to hear that they don't matter) could not vote at their local elections. Therefore we cannot say that before 1990, all women in Switzerland had the right to vote. They didn't.

mgosia 01.06.2011 13:08

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeShelton (Post 1214562)
HERE some other studies. Stating the difference is 9.4%
Established by BASS (Office for work- and social-political studies)

I really don't understand how research like this can claim there are no reasons for this difference. It is a fact of biology (which is followed by society) that more women than men will experience a break in their career at some point in life and spend more time on caregiving and household, while more men than women consider their biggest priority in life advancing their career. Therefore I think women cannot expect the same pay as men overall (how do you compare apples and pears?) and should stop victimizing themselves. BTW I'm a woman, and although I am the main 'career' person in my family, I don't think women are that stupid at all setting their priorities differently, or that we should feel sorry for them, if you consider rates of depression, suicide and burnout in the male population...

ullainga 01.06.2011 13:12

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1214737)
I am not sure if that's as simple as you suggest. At least in my company the managers work pretty hard.
I believe careers and families don't mix

I'm not sure Tilia was even talking about working as a CFO of a multinational or similar while you have 3 small kids at home - indeed quite difficuly, if your partner does not take the supporting role or you don't outsource most childcare and domestic tasks.

But if you are a specialist in a certain field who just started as a trainee/junior, then have those 3 kids, stay at home for 15 years and go back - you will go back as trainee (if lucky, as surely your knowledge is not up to date any more and why should they even hire you, when they can pick from fresh graduates?). If you keep working just normal hours or even part time, you will most probably advance in your career during those years and will be in a considerably better situation career-wise.

Carlos R 01.06.2011 13:14

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by porsch1909 (Post 1214063)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1214054)
Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men

This is even worse that I could imagine! :eek:

You have lies, damn lies and statistics Nil

If you look past the punchy headline:

'Rechsteiner said that wage discrimination was a serious problem in Switzerland, and that women generally earned about 10 percent less than men for equal work.'

I'm not sure what difference there is in other countries but I'd imagine it would be around equal. I'm not saying 10% is okay...I'm just saying it's not as bad as 40%

The 41% figures seems to be collating ALL the mens salaries and taking a mean and comparing all the women's salaries and taking a mean. It doesn't say if the women are working part time or what? It's a very vague article and doesn't really tell us much to be honest.

I'm not sure I understand this. My wife *ahem* earns all my money, and she doesn't even have a job... :msncrazy:

st2lemans 01.06.2011 13:30

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1214738)
No it's not. Before 1990, some women in switzerland (about half the population of Appenzell Innerrhoden, who I think would not be happy to hear that they don't matter) could not vote at their local elections. Therefore we cannot say that before 1990, all women in Switzerland had the right to vote. They didn't.

They did in national votations.

Tom

Treverus 01.06.2011 13:34

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1214805)
I'm not sure I understand this. My wife *ahem* earns all my money, and she doesn't even have a job... :msncrazy:

In the "get my money... buy my medicine" type of way?


Wollishofener 01.06.2011 15:20

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil_MCR (Post 1214570)
So can someone confirm when the last time there was a vote which Swiss nationals could not partake in based solely on their gender?

ullainga seems to say this was pre-1990 whereas Wolli says it was earlier. I'm not sure if it is ullainga's wording which is "rubbish" or Wolli's logic.

In a federal vote in 1970, the CH-men approved Federal voting by women with a comfortable majority, and it was introduced within less than 2 years in full. So that by 1972, women all over the union could participate in votes and elections. In 1983, the Canton of Zurich got the first female Minister (Regierungsrat) and the Union got the first female Bundesrat in 1984. On municipal and cantonal level, in many places, things moved well before the federal level and the Canton of Zurich with 1969 was NOT the first at all.


************************************************** **********************************


Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1214738)
No it's not. Before 1990, some women in switzerland (about half the population of Appenzell Innerrhoden, who I think would not be happy to hear that they don't matter) could not vote at their local elections. Therefore we cannot say that before 1990, all women in Switzerland had the right to vote. They didn't.

You twist your own words ! I did not say that before 1990 "all women in Switzerland had the right to vote" even if this was true ! Why ? Because also the women of Appenzell-Innerrhoden had the right to vote in all Federal matters up from 1972. To say that before 1990 "all women in Switzerland did not have the right to vote" simply is WRONG.


************************************************** ******************************

ullainga 01.06.2011 15:36

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1215131)
Because also the women of Appenzell-Innerrhoden had the right to vote in all Federal matters up from 1972. To say that before 1990 "all women in Switzerland did not have the right to vote" simply is WRONG.

I never said that voting only means voting on federal level. Some women in Switzerland as late as 1990 didn't have the right to vote on local level.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 16:06

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1215138)
I never said that voting only means voting on federal level. Some women in Switzerland as late as 1990 didn't have the right to vote on local level.

Less than 10'000 out of more than 3 millions is NOT "some" but "A FEW" only. And in reality, most people in Switzerland were not even aware of this :D

mirfield 01.06.2011 16:19

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1215179)
And in reality, most people in Switzerland were not even aware of this :D

You say that like it's a good thing.

MusicChick 01.06.2011 16:35

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mgosia (Post 1214788)
...I don't think women are that stupid at all setting their priorities differently, or that we should feel sorry for them, if you consider rates of depression, suicide and burnout in the male population...

True, there is enough love to go around to feel bad also for isolated stay at home female population going through postpartum and trying to cope with house/kids/loss of work network and social life. :)

Works both way.

I do think people will have equal salaries based on their efficiency and level of expertise, not on their gender, age, formal charts for seniority/experience.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 17:08

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirfield (Post 1215196)
You say that like it's a good thing.

Neither good nor bad. Nobody talked about, nobody realized that the problem still was existing, and in reality nobody cared about it. It simply was a NON-issue, until somebody brought it up in 1990. And the union somehow had the legal tools to press that Canton into modernity. Female voting rights had between 1972 and 1990 got into the Federal constitution, and so, the stance of that Canton had become unconstitutional ;)

And rather bad of course is the fact that there in Appenzell is no voting secrecy, as everybody in the Landsgemeinde
http://www.ai.ch/de/politik/sitzung/
can see what and whom you are voting for :msncrazy:

amogles 01.06.2011 17:16

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1215275)
Neither good nor bad. Nobody talked about, nobody realized that the problem still was existing, and in reality nobody cared about it. It simply was a NON-issue, until somebody brought it up in 1990. And the union somehow had the legal tools to press that Canton into modernity. Female voting rights had between 1972 and 1990 got into the Federal constitution, and so, the stance of that Canton had become unconstitutional ;)

I think you're simplifying just a wee bit there.

If nobody would have cared, nobody would have bothered to raise the issue.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 17:35

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amogles (Post 1215289)
I think you're simplifying just a wee bit there.

If nobody would have cared, nobody would have bothered to raise the issue.

Young women in Appenzell DID care !
Young women in Appenzell DID bother !
AND most of all, the Council of Europe DID care !

But I can tell you that in all these years between 1972 and 1990, in the rest of Switzerland, really nobody cared/bothered about this aspect in any way.

Here some photos of voting/electing in AI :
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...EDmR4tvTR3SXmchttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...wxLQ_dYx1H11wNhttp://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...CwfiWfQ8_MvKUZhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...JAvhAM2s7g6Fqg




http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...bTDZVLE8eIsM6whttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...LSQA_6QZlvkpSQhttp://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...Grc5iTKcVbMU9g

poptart 01.06.2011 19:26

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1214805)
I'm not sure I understand this. My wife *ahem* earns all my money, and she doesn't even have a job... :msncrazy:

As a 'trailing spouse' who used to have a full-time IT job with a six-figure salary that was higher than her husband's six-figure salary I take offense to the 'oh, my trophy wife sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can kind of attitude towards women.

If that works for you both, great, but for those of us women who are educated, driven and intelligent, Switzerland is like kryptonite to the soul. I'd like to work but, given the school hours, etc, it means I need to figure out some form of child care, especially for the random holidays, and it's really, really not easy to do. That and the extreme taxation from both sides of the atlantic for a woman bringing home the bacon along with her husband and it makes the rather dramatic cost for child care seem less attractive.

Carlos R 01.06.2011 19:40

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215459)
As a 'trailing spouse' who used to have a full-time IT job with a six-figure salary that was higher than her husband's six-figure salary I take offense to the 'oh, my trophy wife sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can kind of attitude towards women.

:msnsarcastic:

And where exactly did I say I had a "trophy wife who sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can"?

<goes back and checks>

Oh. Well bugger me, I didn't.

For the record, my wife has a much better education than me and probably than you - or at least the equivalent in her field, anyway. You can be insulted as much as you like, for all I care. Don't take out or project your frustrations on to either of us or make assumptions about something you know nothing about - i.e. me, my wife, our relationship or the decisions we make.

You can of course, just don't expect me to care.

Furthermore, you completely missed the point of my post. But never mind.

Carry on now, and have a nice weekend.

poptart 01.06.2011 19:59

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215473)
:msnsarcastic:

And where exactly did I say I had a "trophy wife who sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can"?

<goes back and checks>

Oh. Well bugger me, I didn't.

For the record, my wife has a much better education than me and probably than you - or at least the equivalent in her field, anyway. You can be insulted as much as you like, for all I care. Don't take out or project your frustrations on to either of us or make assumptions about something you know nothing about - i.e. me, my wife, our relationship or the decisions we make.

You can of course, just don't expect me to care.

Furthermore, you completely missed the point of my post. But never mind.

Carry on now, and have a nice weekend.

For a guy who just said his wife earns all his money and doesn't even work....? What was the point of your post then? Please do enlighten me.

Nil 01.06.2011 20:03

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Poptart, I understand your points and feel like this too but you send it toward the wrong guy,

It is no where Carlos said something you have been suggested. Believe me, he isn't that type of guy, not our Carlos.

:)

Carlos R 01.06.2011 20:04

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215490)
For a guy who just said his wife earns all his money and doesn't even work....? What was the point of your post then? Please do enlighten me.

You worked in IT for a six figure sum. You work it out.

MusicChick 01.06.2011 20:04

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
I think people who stay at home and don't clock in and out, actually do work. They just do not get a pay slip, and, get labeled as jobless. A lot of them actually wish, at least sometimes, in my experience, to be those lucky ones to clock in and clock out and have that pretty payslip with all that it comes with, including fab pension and maybe even life insurance to afford.

Nil 01.06.2011 20:06

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215490)
For a guy who just said his wife earns all his money and doesn't even work....? What was the point of your post then? Please do enlighten me.

Nothing wrong in that.

I gave up my career for my husband's career and to take care of the kids.

His money is my money. He is the one who'll tell you that. And I'll answer him back saying; No honey, it is OUR money..... :rolleyes: (but you know that I know what he knows....) ;)

Carlos R 01.06.2011 20:08

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215500)
Nothing wrong in that.

I gave up my career for my husband's career and to take care of the kids.

His money is my money. He is the one who'll tell you that. And I'll answer him back saying; No honey, it is OUR money..... :rolleyes: (but you know that I know what he knows....) ;)

Just for the record, Nil's not my wife, although I am her favourite troll. :D

Nil 01.06.2011 20:14

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215505)
Just for the record, Nil's not my wife, although I am her favourite troll. :D

ONE of my favorites....

I have an Harem of troll... ;)

poptart 01.06.2011 20:18

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215500)
Nothing wrong in that.

I gave up my career for my husband's career and to take care of the kids.

His money is my money. He is the one who'll tell you that. And I'll answer him back saying; No honey, it is OUR money..... :rolleyes: (but you know that I know what he knows....) ;)

That's awesome, really, (and I'm jealous truth be told) but....my skills are not being a mum, but in a specialised IT field. I took 18 months off after I had my child and, while I don't regret it, it was the hardest job I ever had. I'm just not socially that great, even in my own culture, much less one where I'm the extreme outsider. I'm also used to making my own money, owning my own home and keeping my own bank account....so this whole thing of relying on my husband in a country that is in the 1950s where women's rights are concerned more or less doesn't give me a lot of comfort. And...with the IT field, it's not as though you can take years off and not suffer from a stale CV. Switzerland is awesome if you want to be a SAHM...not so much if you don't.

Moorsholm 01.06.2011 20:22

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Poptart - I totally get where you're coming from.

Carlos R 01.06.2011 20:25

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215513)
Switzerland is awesome if you want to be a SAHM...not so much if you don't.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. Me least of all.

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".

Nil 01.06.2011 20:35

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215513)
That's awesome, really, (and I'm jealous truth be told) but....my skills are not being a mum, but in a specialised IT field. I took 18 months off after I had my child and, while I don't regret it, it was the hardest job I ever had. I'm just not socially that great, even in my own culture, much less one where I'm the extreme outsider. I'm also used to making my own money, owning my own home and keeping my own bank account....so this whole thing of relying on my husband in a country that is in the 1950s where women's rights are concerned more or less doesn't give me a lot of comfort. And...with the IT field, it's not as though you can take years off and not suffer from a stale CV. Switzerland is awesome if you want to be a SAHM...not so much if you don't.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I never studied to be with kids and be childminder. I had a great career and God knows how exciting and glamourous my social life was. And I miss it.

I wish I had the choice to have both but not in Switzerland. I hope I'll have the chance to get back to work in a year or two here in Barca.

But I see the positif of being a housewife, I get to see my kids growing up and I can chill out at the parc with them and play silly things. One day, I'll look back and have those great memories to remember.

I think I am pretty lucky to have that chance...... even if it isn't easy.

poptart 01.06.2011 20:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215519)
I don't think anyone is disputing that. Me least of all.

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".

My apologies if I misunderstood your original post....perhaps I'm just a bit sensitive since even without the study about the disparity in pay, I see the disparity in gender equality in how people behave daily and I wonder wtf I'm doing here. There's no amount of 'quality of life' that can make up for me feeling like I'm a second class citizen squared.

poptart 01.06.2011 20:55

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215530)
Oh, don't get me wrong. I never studied to be with kids and be childminder. I had a great career and God knows how exciting and glamourous my social life was. And I miss it.

I wish I had the choice to have both but not in Switzerland. I hope I'll have the chance to get back to work in a year or two here in Barca.

But I see the positif of being a housewife, I get to see my kids growing up and I can chill out at the parc with them and play silly things. One day, I'll look back and have those great memories to remember.

I think I am pretty lucky to have that chance...... even if it isn't easy.

This is my quandry - I didn't have that exciting of a social life, but at least I had the freedom to choose. I only have one child and, at least when I was working, I was happier and less stressed, so I'd like to think that a happier parent is a better parent even without being skilled in the ways of parenting. It's not easy, no, and I try my heart out but, being used to being good at what I do and getting paid well for it, it's a difficult transition to being a 2nd class citizen without pay and the constant fear and doubt that maybe I'm doing more harm than good by being home with my child while not being happy where I am.

Nil 01.06.2011 21:01

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215548)
This is my quandry - I didn't have that exciting of a social life, but at least I had the freedom to choose. I only have one child and, at least when I was working, I was happier and less stressed, so I'd like to think that a happier parent is a better parent even without being skilled in the ways of parenting. It's not easy, no, and I try my heart out but, being used to being good at what I do and getting paid well for it, it's a difficult transition to being a 2nd class citizen without pay and the constant fear and doubt that maybe I'm doing more harm than good by being home with my child while not being happy where I am.

I think where you are and not being happy about it is more about it than being at home. If you are not happy where you live, you won't be happy in general.

I know, I was like that the first year too. Not working and being at home... I was going nuts!

Did you look for activities you could do to keep your mind busy?

poptart 01.06.2011 21:25

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215554)
I think where you are and not being happy about it is more about it than being at home. If you are not happy where you live, you won't be happy in general.

I know, I was like that the first year too. Not working and being at home... I was going nuts!

Did you look for activities you could do to keep your mind busy?

I'm trying, yes, but being really good at something that I used to be paid really well for doing, coming up with things to keep me 'busy' is a bit of a comedown for me. Sure, I could probably get something in the way of work here but, as I explained to the other half, after all the acrobatics...the end result is raising a girl in a culture that is 50 years behind either of our cultures, e.g. you can be anything you want to be as long as you do as we tell you ( see SNL ). We're not going to stay as if that weren't obvious but...I wish it were different.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 21:53

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215459)
As a 'trailing spouse' who used to have a full-time IT job with a six-figure salary that was higher than her husband's six-figure salary I take offense to the 'oh, my trophy wife sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can kind of attitude towards women.

If that works for you both, great, but for those of us women who are educated, driven and intelligent, Switzerland is like kryptonite to the soul. I'd like to work but, given the school hours, etc, it means I need to figure out some form of child care, especially for the random holidays, and it's really, really not easy to do. That and the extreme taxation from both sides of the atlantic for a woman bringing home the bacon along with her husband and it makes the rather dramatic cost for child care seem less attractive.

When I went to school, the mothers of many of my mates were working. Some after school went to the "Kinderhort" and most of them clearly defended that institution as a nice thing. And some went home (among them a good friend of us) and found things pre-prepared by their mothers, just as at lunchtime. And we between 4pm and 6pm were outside anyway. As soon as your children are at school-age, you can prepare lunch for them (cold of course at least in the beginning) as well as a small snack for when they return back home at 4pm . Give them a bit of responsiblity like looking for your plants on the balcony at lunchtime. Mrs Br.... who sometimes could return at lunchtime and sometimes not, often gave her son a phonecall to check things up AND to tell him that she had forgotten this or that (she possibly had NOT forgotten anything !) and tell him to do something. I in hindsight have to recognize that quite many of those fully working mothers were ingenious and full of ideas how to solve the problem


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Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215519)
I don't think anyone is disputing that. Me least of all.

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".

But here around (Zürich and suburbs) a majority of all the mothers (of children above 8 years of age ..... in case of younger children it is very very far from easy) go working full time. They have to make intelligent arrangements about their kids.

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ullainga 01.06.2011 22:09

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1215615)
But here around (Zürich and suburbs) a majority of all the mothers (of children above 8 years of age ..... in case of younger children it is very very far from easy) go working full time. .

so if you have 2-3 kids, this effectively means good 10-15 years away from the job market, like we have been discussing. even 1 kid and 8 years at home is a very long time to take off for most careers and also significantly longer than common in most european countries. but as said, it's not exactly easy here.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 22:22

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1215626)
so if you have 2-3 kids, this effectively means good 10-15 years away from the job market, like we have been discussing. even 1 kid and 8 years at home is a very long time to take off for most careers and also significantly longer than common in most european countries. but as said, it's not exactly easy here.

Unfortunately YES to some extent, unless you find a decent and not too expensive "Kinderkrippe". But they are fairly expensive. You may have to find a good neighbour to help out. Our parents often could go onto holidays when we were small thanks to first old Miss Schw.... who cared for a 98years old neighbour and had enough time also to care for us and then later Mrs F... from right accross. And about two or three times, our grandmother moved in from Schaffhausen. No, indeed, care for children of below 8 years is miles from easy and needs quite some organisation.

Sure, this crash of female careers is THE main reason for the lower salaries. Many young mothers have to work part-time in order to cope. Ever wondered why most children are not from CH parents ;)

m_dalloway 02.06.2011 00:59

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".
True.

After I graduated from uni, and was due to finish my internship at a bank, I had a meeting with HR to negotiate about a possible perm contract. I was then told by HR, that she would be concerned to hire me, as, 'So jungi Meitli waend doch nume huerate und Chind kriege.' ('young ladies' priority is to find a husband and get pregnant.') I was then 24!
So there was probably a memo given to HR to be careful hiring any women in childbearing age as this would cause costs for training, and them then leaving shortly after to go into paid maternity leave.

This was less than 10 years ago, not sure if much have changed since.

P.S. I got the job nevertheless. :)


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