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-   -   Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/115404-swiss-women-earn-41-percent-less-than-men.html)

Carlos R 01.06.2011 19:40

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215459)
As a 'trailing spouse' who used to have a full-time IT job with a six-figure salary that was higher than her husband's six-figure salary I take offense to the 'oh, my trophy wife sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can kind of attitude towards women.

:msnsarcastic:

And where exactly did I say I had a "trophy wife who sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can"?

<goes back and checks>

Oh. Well bugger me, I didn't.

For the record, my wife has a much better education than me and probably than you - or at least the equivalent in her field, anyway. You can be insulted as much as you like, for all I care. Don't take out or project your frustrations on to either of us or make assumptions about something you know nothing about - i.e. me, my wife, our relationship or the decisions we make.

You can of course, just don't expect me to care.

Furthermore, you completely missed the point of my post. But never mind.

Carry on now, and have a nice weekend.

poptart 01.06.2011 19:59

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215473)
:msnsarcastic:

And where exactly did I say I had a "trophy wife who sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can"?

<goes back and checks>

Oh. Well bugger me, I didn't.

For the record, my wife has a much better education than me and probably than you - or at least the equivalent in her field, anyway. You can be insulted as much as you like, for all I care. Don't take out or project your frustrations on to either of us or make assumptions about something you know nothing about - i.e. me, my wife, our relationship or the decisions we make.

You can of course, just don't expect me to care.

Furthermore, you completely missed the point of my post. But never mind.

Carry on now, and have a nice weekend.

For a guy who just said his wife earns all his money and doesn't even work....? What was the point of your post then? Please do enlighten me.

Nil 01.06.2011 20:03

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Poptart, I understand your points and feel like this too but you send it toward the wrong guy,

It is no where Carlos said something you have been suggested. Believe me, he isn't that type of guy, not our Carlos.

:)

Carlos R 01.06.2011 20:04

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215490)
For a guy who just said his wife earns all his money and doesn't even work....? What was the point of your post then? Please do enlighten me.

You worked in IT for a six figure sum. You work it out.

MusicChick 01.06.2011 20:04

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
I think people who stay at home and don't clock in and out, actually do work. They just do not get a pay slip, and, get labeled as jobless. A lot of them actually wish, at least sometimes, in my experience, to be those lucky ones to clock in and clock out and have that pretty payslip with all that it comes with, including fab pension and maybe even life insurance to afford.

Nil 01.06.2011 20:06

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215490)
For a guy who just said his wife earns all his money and doesn't even work....? What was the point of your post then? Please do enlighten me.

Nothing wrong in that.

I gave up my career for my husband's career and to take care of the kids.

His money is my money. He is the one who'll tell you that. And I'll answer him back saying; No honey, it is OUR money..... :rolleyes: (but you know that I know what he knows....) ;)

Carlos R 01.06.2011 20:08

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215500)
Nothing wrong in that.

I gave up my career for my husband's career and to take care of the kids.

His money is my money. He is the one who'll tell you that. And I'll answer him back saying; No honey, it is OUR money..... :rolleyes: (but you know that I know what he knows....) ;)

Just for the record, Nil's not my wife, although I am her favourite troll. :D

Nil 01.06.2011 20:14

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215505)
Just for the record, Nil's not my wife, although I am her favourite troll. :D

ONE of my favorites....

I have an Harem of troll... ;)

poptart 01.06.2011 20:18

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215500)
Nothing wrong in that.

I gave up my career for my husband's career and to take care of the kids.

His money is my money. He is the one who'll tell you that. And I'll answer him back saying; No honey, it is OUR money..... :rolleyes: (but you know that I know what he knows....) ;)

That's awesome, really, (and I'm jealous truth be told) but....my skills are not being a mum, but in a specialised IT field. I took 18 months off after I had my child and, while I don't regret it, it was the hardest job I ever had. I'm just not socially that great, even in my own culture, much less one where I'm the extreme outsider. I'm also used to making my own money, owning my own home and keeping my own bank account....so this whole thing of relying on my husband in a country that is in the 1950s where women's rights are concerned more or less doesn't give me a lot of comfort. And...with the IT field, it's not as though you can take years off and not suffer from a stale CV. Switzerland is awesome if you want to be a SAHM...not so much if you don't.

Moorsholm 01.06.2011 20:22

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Poptart - I totally get where you're coming from.

Carlos R 01.06.2011 20:25

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215513)
Switzerland is awesome if you want to be a SAHM...not so much if you don't.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. Me least of all.

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".

Nil 01.06.2011 20:35

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215513)
That's awesome, really, (and I'm jealous truth be told) but....my skills are not being a mum, but in a specialised IT field. I took 18 months off after I had my child and, while I don't regret it, it was the hardest job I ever had. I'm just not socially that great, even in my own culture, much less one where I'm the extreme outsider. I'm also used to making my own money, owning my own home and keeping my own bank account....so this whole thing of relying on my husband in a country that is in the 1950s where women's rights are concerned more or less doesn't give me a lot of comfort. And...with the IT field, it's not as though you can take years off and not suffer from a stale CV. Switzerland is awesome if you want to be a SAHM...not so much if you don't.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I never studied to be with kids and be childminder. I had a great career and God knows how exciting and glamourous my social life was. And I miss it.

I wish I had the choice to have both but not in Switzerland. I hope I'll have the chance to get back to work in a year or two here in Barca.

But I see the positif of being a housewife, I get to see my kids growing up and I can chill out at the parc with them and play silly things. One day, I'll look back and have those great memories to remember.

I think I am pretty lucky to have that chance...... even if it isn't easy.

poptart 01.06.2011 20:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215519)
I don't think anyone is disputing that. Me least of all.

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".

My apologies if I misunderstood your original post....perhaps I'm just a bit sensitive since even without the study about the disparity in pay, I see the disparity in gender equality in how people behave daily and I wonder wtf I'm doing here. There's no amount of 'quality of life' that can make up for me feeling like I'm a second class citizen squared.

poptart 01.06.2011 20:55

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215530)
Oh, don't get me wrong. I never studied to be with kids and be childminder. I had a great career and God knows how exciting and glamourous my social life was. And I miss it.

I wish I had the choice to have both but not in Switzerland. I hope I'll have the chance to get back to work in a year or two here in Barca.

But I see the positif of being a housewife, I get to see my kids growing up and I can chill out at the parc with them and play silly things. One day, I'll look back and have those great memories to remember.

I think I am pretty lucky to have that chance...... even if it isn't easy.

This is my quandry - I didn't have that exciting of a social life, but at least I had the freedom to choose. I only have one child and, at least when I was working, I was happier and less stressed, so I'd like to think that a happier parent is a better parent even without being skilled in the ways of parenting. It's not easy, no, and I try my heart out but, being used to being good at what I do and getting paid well for it, it's a difficult transition to being a 2nd class citizen without pay and the constant fear and doubt that maybe I'm doing more harm than good by being home with my child while not being happy where I am.

Nil 01.06.2011 21:01

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215548)
This is my quandry - I didn't have that exciting of a social life, but at least I had the freedom to choose. I only have one child and, at least when I was working, I was happier and less stressed, so I'd like to think that a happier parent is a better parent even without being skilled in the ways of parenting. It's not easy, no, and I try my heart out but, being used to being good at what I do and getting paid well for it, it's a difficult transition to being a 2nd class citizen without pay and the constant fear and doubt that maybe I'm doing more harm than good by being home with my child while not being happy where I am.

I think where you are and not being happy about it is more about it than being at home. If you are not happy where you live, you won't be happy in general.

I know, I was like that the first year too. Not working and being at home... I was going nuts!

Did you look for activities you could do to keep your mind busy?

poptart 01.06.2011 21:25

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nil (Post 1215554)
I think where you are and not being happy about it is more about it than being at home. If you are not happy where you live, you won't be happy in general.

I know, I was like that the first year too. Not working and being at home... I was going nuts!

Did you look for activities you could do to keep your mind busy?

I'm trying, yes, but being really good at something that I used to be paid really well for doing, coming up with things to keep me 'busy' is a bit of a comedown for me. Sure, I could probably get something in the way of work here but, as I explained to the other half, after all the acrobatics...the end result is raising a girl in a culture that is 50 years behind either of our cultures, e.g. you can be anything you want to be as long as you do as we tell you ( see SNL ). We're not going to stay as if that weren't obvious but...I wish it were different.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 21:53

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by poptart (Post 1215459)
As a 'trailing spouse' who used to have a full-time IT job with a six-figure salary that was higher than her husband's six-figure salary I take offense to the 'oh, my trophy wife sits on the sofa and eats bon-bons all day because she can kind of attitude towards women.

If that works for you both, great, but for those of us women who are educated, driven and intelligent, Switzerland is like kryptonite to the soul. I'd like to work but, given the school hours, etc, it means I need to figure out some form of child care, especially for the random holidays, and it's really, really not easy to do. That and the extreme taxation from both sides of the atlantic for a woman bringing home the bacon along with her husband and it makes the rather dramatic cost for child care seem less attractive.

When I went to school, the mothers of many of my mates were working. Some after school went to the "Kinderhort" and most of them clearly defended that institution as a nice thing. And some went home (among them a good friend of us) and found things pre-prepared by their mothers, just as at lunchtime. And we between 4pm and 6pm were outside anyway. As soon as your children are at school-age, you can prepare lunch for them (cold of course at least in the beginning) as well as a small snack for when they return back home at 4pm . Give them a bit of responsiblity like looking for your plants on the balcony at lunchtime. Mrs Br.... who sometimes could return at lunchtime and sometimes not, often gave her son a phonecall to check things up AND to tell him that she had forgotten this or that (she possibly had NOT forgotten anything !) and tell him to do something. I in hindsight have to recognize that quite many of those fully working mothers were ingenious and full of ideas how to solve the problem


************************************************** ******************************

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos R (Post 1215519)
I don't think anyone is disputing that. Me least of all.

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".

But here around (Zürich and suburbs) a majority of all the mothers (of children above 8 years of age ..... in case of younger children it is very very far from easy) go working full time. They have to make intelligent arrangements about their kids.

************************************************** ***************************************

ullainga 01.06.2011 22:09

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1215615)
But here around (Zürich and suburbs) a majority of all the mothers (of children above 8 years of age ..... in case of younger children it is very very far from easy) go working full time. .

so if you have 2-3 kids, this effectively means good 10-15 years away from the job market, like we have been discussing. even 1 kid and 8 years at home is a very long time to take off for most careers and also significantly longer than common in most european countries. but as said, it's not exactly easy here.

Wollishofener 01.06.2011 22:22

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ullainga (Post 1215626)
so if you have 2-3 kids, this effectively means good 10-15 years away from the job market, like we have been discussing. even 1 kid and 8 years at home is a very long time to take off for most careers and also significantly longer than common in most european countries. but as said, it's not exactly easy here.

Unfortunately YES to some extent, unless you find a decent and not too expensive "Kinderkrippe". But they are fairly expensive. You may have to find a good neighbour to help out. Our parents often could go onto holidays when we were small thanks to first old Miss Schw.... who cared for a 98years old neighbour and had enough time also to care for us and then later Mrs F... from right accross. And about two or three times, our grandmother moved in from Schaffhausen. No, indeed, care for children of below 8 years is miles from easy and needs quite some organisation.

Sure, this crash of female careers is THE main reason for the lower salaries. Many young mothers have to work part-time in order to cope. Ever wondered why most children are not from CH parents ;)

m_dalloway 02.06.2011 00:59

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Switzerland suffers badly from SFS - Swiss Frau Syndrome - whereby life is geared to keeping the Mrs in the confines of her "home".
True.

After I graduated from uni, and was due to finish my internship at a bank, I had a meeting with HR to negotiate about a possible perm contract. I was then told by HR, that she would be concerned to hire me, as, 'So jungi Meitli waend doch nume huerate und Chind kriege.' ('young ladies' priority is to find a husband and get pregnant.') I was then 24!
So there was probably a memo given to HR to be careful hiring any women in childbearing age as this would cause costs for training, and them then leaving shortly after to go into paid maternity leave.

This was less than 10 years ago, not sure if much have changed since.

P.S. I got the job nevertheless. :)


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