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-   -   Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men (https://www.englishforum.ch/swiss-politics-news/115404-swiss-women-earn-41-percent-less-than-men.html)

Wollishofener 04.06.2011 01:46

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1217009)
I don't know many kids in primary school who go off to the pool etc in their lunch-break - I mean it sounds nice and maybe for older teens is great, but at that age they're more independent and able to be left for longer anyway.

It's the age 7 -11 group I'm mainly thinking about. Kids of this age should not be left alone for extended periods of time, day in day out winter, spring, summer and fall as a matter of course. We're living in different times now - times where left the their own devices many kids spend their time on the internet, on I-phones, listening to and reading who knows what and playing war games. And I'm right in the middle of this as a parent of a nearly 10 year old boy, I see what's happening.

Even back when I was growing up during the 70's when these things weren't around and the temptation wasn't there - we'd spend hours playing other things.

Of course kids still play outside now - my son is out playing football right now - he went out on his own to play tennis with a friend at a nearby club at 9am this morning. It's important kids have the time and are able to do things like this - but in a particular age group it's important that they do these things on a "long leash" so to speak. In other words that a parent or responsible adult knows where they are, what they are doing and is around for them. Bored, kids quickly descend into mischief and very often (with the boys) head straight for gaming/internet to pass time.

With a day school structure there wouldn't be a 2 hour lunch break. More like an hour. Kids would eat with their friends then afterwards they go outside and play, football, in the playground etc. Definitely NOT a situation of restricted freedom - especially as the whole idea of day school is that kids still would have the choice and if they wanted could go home for lunch.

School would start at 9.00 and end at 15.45 including the lunchbreak. Still would leave plenty of time for "free activities" after 16.00. So I still don't see the problem!


We in school-times at good weather in summer often met Mum at lunchtime on the lake in the Schwimmbad.

Mud 04.06.2011 01:47

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Oh, if only an EF'r would come along and explain to us that women actually make more than men, everything would be so much better! But who, who could do that?

Wollishofener 04.06.2011 02:07

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicChick (Post 1217040)
I think when women will be allowed to make a bunch of cash, they will matter. The shop hours will be arranged to suit a family with both employed partners, the school hours will be arranged to suit it, too, the voting, thankgod, caught up.

- women are allowed to make a bunch of cash since the 1950ies
- women DID and DO matter since the 1920ies
- the shopping hours have already been arranged to suit a family with both employed partners, with shops open until 20.00, and open throughout the day
- the voting rights arranged by 1972

- school-hours ? ok, maybe, in about 40 to 70 years time from now :p

the_clangers 04.06.2011 02:15

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Upthehatters2008 (Post 1214111)
Given the choice...staying at home looking after the kids is a luxury...

Have you had to make this choice?
From your comment I would say not.

As a man who has had to "take" this choice, it is not a luxury. It is a grueling and occasionally thankless task. And yes, going to work is sometimes a great respite.

Wollishofener 04.06.2011 02:20

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mud (Post 1217814)
Oh, if only an EF'r would come along and explain to us that women actually make more than men, everything would be so much better! But who, who could do that?


No chance ! There of course are groups of women like office-secretaries who earn more than more qualified and more experienced men in the same company, but they are not representative. All those women working in shops and factories etc however are. And quite many women, and this applies to those secretaries as well at some stage have to decide between children and career.

Few women have it as the wife of an old schoolfriend who, an interior architect, when becoming pregnant, moved half a ton of equipment home and continued to work for her company from home

Faltrad 04.06.2011 13:41

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
If I remember right, France has a high quote of working mothers and a more than full day school (some parents come in the evening back at home before the kids). Is the one linked with the others? It certainly is. Do Swiss women want their children follow French-like school? No they don't.
When women change that mind set and accept students overloaded with school hours and school work, then they will get the time to work full day incl. provided school lunch.

Good luck looking for a "third way" out of that dilemma.

Moorsholm 04.06.2011 14:44

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
One thing the whole discussion about a longer school day has completely ignored is exactly WHAT would happen in that longer day.

A longer school day in terms of time - wouldn't mean more work, more homework more pressure. It "could" mean a shorter lunch break (1 hour) It could mean having some time in the timetable to include much needed and extremely valuable slots on for example, "managing money" "personal development" "communication skills" "relationships/sexuality" "dealing with difficult situations" In other words - non-academic, "life" skills which are just as, if not more important than maths and science.

Or the extra time could be dedicated to after school sports. We had hockey, football, swimming, tennis, gym, netball, baseball but to name a few - schools provided qualified PE (physical ed.) teachers and we had great fun and kept fit. I find it rather strange that if a child wants to play football, tennis or Swim, once again the parents have to organize this privately and pay for it.

A full day school structure would change what schools offer. There would be plenty of choice for everyone. And of course - non of the above stuff would be obligatory so if Frau X wanted her kids at home they could still go home.

Faltrad 04.06.2011 14:59

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1218095)
It could mean having some time in the timetable to include much needed and extremely valuable slots on for example, "managing money" "personal development" "communication skills" "relationships/sexuality" "dealing with difficult situations" In other words - non-academic, "life" skills which are just as, if not more important than maths and science..

Isn't that a british thing? Real question, no critics as such here at all. Here, many parents would react negatively in middle school and high school if there were too much non academic stuff. The expectations are not that school should raise the kids, and propagate values other than the basic citisenship awareness linked to direct democracy system. And teachers would not be doing that either.

The non academic activities are done outside of school, people are free to decide. I am quite sure that at middle school level at least (strange hours in primary schools are another topic worth a discussion of its own), one can keep kids busy every day outside of school in the afternoons and early evenings when needed... Am I too optimistic? I've never tried figuring it out in real, it's just a general impression.

st2lemans 04.06.2011 16:50

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltrad (Post 1217247)
In France, it's 8:00 to 17:00 (minor variations) and believe me, nobody wants that.

When did they change to that?

When I went to school in France in the mid '70s, it was similar to here, though we also had Saturday AM school as well.

Tom

Phil_MCR 04.06.2011 16:54

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mud (Post 1217814)
Oh, if only an EF'r would come along and explain to us that women actually make more than men, everything would be so much better! But who, who could do that?

well, they certainly make more babies. and drama.

Faltrad 04.06.2011 17:19

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 1218159)
When did they change to that?

When I went to school in France in the mid '70s, it was similar to here, though we also had Saturday AM school as well.

Tom

In the 80ies, I had 8:00 to 16:00 or 17:00 depending on the day, free wednesday all day and saturday was 8:00 to 12:00 - there were a couple of free periods built in, not really on purpose, just out of time tabling necessity.
1989-91, class in theory monday to saturday noon but every class had one half day off on top of free wednesday afternoon. My half day off was saturday.

I found it hard physically, but it was academically very good for independant mature students. Not that easy to be independant and mature at 12-15. High school was just work work work work. It's more relaxed here and more focus on some areas worth working at for students and not just pushing as much work as possible for everybody at all times of the day.

My cousins in Hamburg were free at 14:00, but did quite a lot of project work outside classroom that we in France did in class time. We wrote more. A lot more. Enormously more. They were big mouthed, a lot more. Enormously more.

Anyway, I find Swiss school very reasonable from students' perspective. Kind of inbetween northern softy school and French madness. Problem would be solved if mothers could all go to work without putting students into the shoes of French students. Even working Swiss mothers don't want that.

On a personal touch: I like all day school a lot. More time tabled time, that means that we can do everything in class and there schould not be much homework needed outside specific preparation of presentations, active reading or finishing off tasks. In my literature classes, I just tell students what is on next lessons and want them to know the text so that talking about it makes sense. In all day school, we have time to do the actual work together. But that's not primary school relevent, so just forget it.

P.S. I am aware of the fact that I use French school as a horrible example of child abuse for some not wrong reasons at all, but I must say that it did wonders on my brain.

Wollishofener 04.06.2011 23:19

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1218095)
One thing the whole discussion about a longer school day has completely ignored is exactly WHAT would happen in that longer day.

A longer school day in terms of time - wouldn't mean more work, more homework more pressure. It "could" mean a shorter lunch break (1 hour) It could mean having some time in the timetable to include much needed and extremely valuable slots on for example, "managing money" "personal development" "communication skills" "relationships/sexuality" "dealing with difficult situations" In other words - non-academic, "life" skills which are just as, if not more important than maths and science.

Or the extra time could be dedicated to after school sports. We had hockey, football, swimming, tennis, gym, netball, baseball but to name a few - schools provided qualified PE (physical ed.) teachers and we had great fun and kept fit. I find it rather strange that if a child wants to play football, tennis or Swim, once again the parents have to organize this privately and pay for it.

A full day school structure would change what schools offer. There would be plenty of choice for everyone. And of course - non of the above stuff would be obligatory so if Frau X wanted her kids at home they could still go home.

Wrong. For example in Zürich-Wollishorfen,between 16.00 and 18.00 the entrance to the swimming place on the lake was and is free. No organisation by the parents required. And football playing, except the football-clubs, was and is organised by the pupils and not the parents and was and is free

Moorsholm 05.06.2011 12:27

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1218366)
Wrong. For example in Zürich-Wollishorfen,between 16.00 and 18.00 the entrance to the swimming place on the lake was and is free. No organisation by the parents required. And football playing, except the football-clubs, was and is organised by the pupils and not the parents and was and is free


Wrong for Zurich Wollishorfen perhaps - but maybe not for many other parts of Switzerland. Tennis, netball, hockey and swimming are still not so easy for the average 8 year old to "organize" and take part in without adult support in many areas. Wouldn't want my 9 year old jumping in the Rheine for a swim on his own that's for sure:eek:

the_clangers 05.06.2011 16:01

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wollishofener (Post 1218366)
Wrong. For example in Zürich-Wollishorfen,between 16.00 and 18.00 the entrance to the swimming place on the lake was and is free. No organisation by the parents required. And football playing, except the football-clubs, was and is organised by the pupils and not the parents and was and is free

Did you think that children did/do all of that stuff by themselves. Well then the parents of those children did/do a good job of letting the children think that they are doing it themselves. :)

I don't know any children who have casual access to tennis equipment and venues without their parents buying or paying for stuff.

Likewise the organised sports don't happen in a vacuum. Parents and school or sporting officials have quite a bit to do with it behind the scenes. I mean football fields don't just form magically and maintain themselves.

Not to mention, I can't imagine all of the children at the pool during free time all made it there by themselves without any assistance or at least cooperation from their parents.

The fact that you don't recognise that a parent(s) involvement is largely responsible for these things to occur is indicative of the fact that people don't realise how much work goes into raising children and directing their activities.

Yet more unpaid work that is done on behalf of families and society that goes without recognition, as per usual. Denying that these things happen just serves to further validate the points being raised by people such as myself.

Thanks for that. :thumbup:

Moorsholm 05.06.2011 18:05

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the_clangers (Post 1218737)
Did you think that children did/do all of that stuff by themselves. Well then the parents of those children did/do a good job of letting the children think that they are doing it themselves. :)

I don't know any children who have casual access to tennis equipment and venues without their parents buying or paying for stuff.

Likewise the organised sports don't happen in a vacuum. Parents and school or sporting officials have quite a bit to do with it behind the scenes. I mean football fields don't just form magically and maintain themselves.

Not to mention, I can't imagine all of the children at the pool during free time all made it there by themselves without any assistance or at least cooperation from their parents.

The fact that you don't recognise that a parent(s) involvement is largely responsible for these things to occur is indicative of the fact that people don't realise how much work goes into raising children and directing their activities.

Yet more unpaid work that is done on behalf of families and society that goes without recognition, as per usual. Denying that these things happen just serves to further validate the points being raised by people such as myself.

Thanks for that. :thumbup:




Just to add - people who think 8 year olds can "organise it all" by themselves probably don't have primary school aged kids;)

st2lemans 05.06.2011 18:09

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1218813)
Just to add - people who think 8 year olds can "organise it all" by themselves probably don't have primary school aged kids;)

Hmm, I did when I was 8.

I guess kids these days aren't as capable/ambitious as we were back then.

Tom

Guest 05.06.2011 18:16

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by st2lemans (Post 1218816)
Hmm, I did when I was 8.

I guess kids these days aren't as capable/ambitious as we were back then.

Tom

Our resources:

Leftovers from the building compound, muddy brook, unbuilt corner of the estate, football, newts, tennis balls, cricket bat, frisbee, several Chopper bikes and penknives.

Our activities:

Endless fun, without adult supervision or organisation.


I feel sorry for modern 8 year olds with their tennis classes and piano lessons and all that nonsense. When do they get the time to learn how to be themselves?

st2lemans 05.06.2011 18:28

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
I always lived in/near woods while growing up (and still do), and used to do all kinds of stuff in and around them.

Unsupervised.

Tom

simon_ch 05.06.2011 19:01

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Same here Tom, but I think that's only possible if you grow up in a village where kids care for themselves. We certainly never had any adult supervisions nor did my parents ever pick me up from anywhere (school, sports, holiday camps - walk, bicycle or took the train). And I don't think my mother would have found the time, with a house and 4 kids to take care... ;-)

Moorsholm 05.06.2011 19:42

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by simon_ch (Post 1218851)
Same here Tom, but I think that's only possible if you grow up in a village where kids care for themselves. We certainly never had any adult supervisions nor did my parents ever pick me up from anywhere (school, sports, holiday camps - walk, bicycle or took the train). And I don't think my mother would have found the time, with a house and 4 kids to take care... ;-)


Rural living - city living - you can't really compare the two. Kids still walk to and from school alone in the city, but that wasn't really what the discussion was about.....it was about why women earn less than men and many people (women with school aged kids) then made the connection that the fragmented school day and potential long periods of unsupervised time (like 6 hours several times a week) come wind, rain or shine, is not an attractive option (regarding leaving their kids) to many working mothers living in a city, with no family etc around.

Moorsholm 05.06.2011 19:49

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Our resources:

Leftovers from the building compound, muddy brook, unbuilt corner of the estate, football, newts, tennis balls, cricket bat, frisbee, several Chopper bikes and penknives.

Our activities:

Endless fun, without adult supervision or organisation.


I feel sorry for modern 8 year olds with their tennis classes and piano lessons and all that nonsense. When do they get the time to learn how to be themselves?


If you have kids lets discuss. If you're an armchair critic and do not actually have kids then you're talking in generalizations here.

Most kids around here have ample "free time" to learn how to be themselves. Especially when the nights are light, they (including my own son) are out playing (football, catch the zombies, climbing trees, hide and seek) for several hours each and every day.

Most kids also have at least one "hobby". My son plays tennis - so does my husband. Son and hubby have training every Friday evening at the club over the road. I don't feel sorry for him at all - in fact I think it's great that he's interested in and has the chance to play tennis whenever he wants.


So your own musings about a childhood spent playing games outside without parental intervention are not so far away at all from the reality I see when I look out of my window and occasionally catch sight of my son and friends running off playing the latest game of whatever.

But all that is lovely. Having no-one at home and being forced to play outside everyday whatever the weather - or to be forced to return to an empty house/apartment - is less idealistic and it is exactly what we are talking about in the discussion about school days and school hours. It's exactly that situation which is a reality for many kids whose mums have to work full time and they are left to fend for themselves on a daily basis for up to 6 hours a day - at primary age. Something very different indeed from having the freedom to play out and be themselves.

And that is why many women who have a career or would like not to give up on their career would greatly appreciate a day structure at school which might even include fun and sports for the kids too. Different point completely.

Guest 05.06.2011 20:15

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1218891)
comprehensive slap down

Oops... serves me right for diving into the thread on the seventh page and not reading the context... :msnblush:

st2lemans 05.06.2011 20:31

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1218882)
Rural living - city living - you can't really compare the two.

Well, I would NEVER live in a city, nor work in one.

Beyond that, as a single (i.e. widowed, not divorced) parent for 8+ years, I think my input is totally valid.

Tom

Faltrad 05.06.2011 21:45

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1218891)
If you have kids lets discuss.

Come on, you can't keep all childless teachers and educators out of the profession, that would create more problems than it would solve... ;)

From a "let's think of an ideal school day" perspective, I must say that an offer of various activities under supervision for the last part of the day would be a good thing for everybody. It worked like that with mothers' engagement until the recent reform in Germany, so one would have to find and pay people to replace those parents who would then have the possibility to get a career or their nails done (I am arguing the freedom of choice, not forcing half of the population into hard labour).

From a local culture perspective, I must insist on the main idea I was trying to get across earlier: people like it the way it works, even if it does not work for the best of all parts involved. I've even seen a report about mothers bringing fat food to their kids in a british school because they didn't accept the Jamie Oliver approach of school food... mothers basically killing their children with fried fat, nevertheless I don't think they don't love their children (that means I think they do love them).

The idea that a whole day of school is too long for children is not really something to be discussed in CH. Even if one wants a whole day programm for children, it will have to be with a large part of non-school (i.e. non academic) agenda. Nothing wrong about it, but that would mean three big changes the Swiss famillies, even in red Basel, would find difficult: financing a parallell system of free time activities, taking away from familly a part of the non-academic education, and making obligatory hence controlling a part of people's free time. All three means directly or indirectly an attack on families' freedom to raise their children the way they want. It would be canton taking over the two sides of education (in the English sense of the word): academic and pastoral. That may be a wonderfully nice thing in some cultures, but it is not what the parents here ask the school to do. To convince them that it would be a good thing would take a lot of convincing work (Überzeugungsarbeit).

In other words, the two german words Ausbildung and Erziehung are not misstaken for oneanother in people's mind. The English word education meaning both, some confusion appears in discutions in the German speaking world. Same in French with the two vers éduquer and élever the children (School should educate children, not raise them). I am blaming it on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, so please do not take it personnaly as English speakers.

Moorsholm 05.06.2011 22:41

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Faltrad (Post 1218987)
Come on, you can't keep all childless teachers and educators out of the profession, that would create more problems than it would solve... ;)

From a "let's think of an ideal school day" perspective, I must say that an offer of various activities under supervision for the last part of the day would be a good thing for everybody. It worked like that with mothers' engagement until the recent reform in Germany, so one would have to find and pay people to replace those parents who would then have the possibility to get a career or their nails done (I am arguing the freedom of choice, not forcing half of the population into hard labour).

From a local culture perspective, I must insist on the main idea I was trying to get across earlier: people like it the way it works, even if it does not work for the best of all parts involved. I've even seen a report about mothers bringing fat food to their kids in a british school because they didn't accept the Jamie Oliver approach of school food... mothers basically killing their children with fried fat, nevertheless I don't think they don't love their children (that means I think they do love them).

The idea that a whole day of school is too long for children is not really something to be discussed in CH. Even if one wants a whole day programm for children, it will have to be with a large part of non-school (i.e. non academic) agenda. Nothing wrong about it, but that would mean three big changes the Swiss famillies, even in red Basel, would find difficult: financing a parallell system of free time activities, taking away from familly a part of the non-academic education, and making obligatory hence controlling a part of people's free time. All three means directly or indirectly an attack on families' freedom to raise their children the way they want. It would be canton taking over the two sides of education (in the English sense of the word): academic and pastoral. That may be a wonderfully nice thing in some cultures, but it is not what the parents here ask the school to do. To convince them that it would be a good thing would take a lot of convincing work (Überzeugungsarbeit).

In other words, the two german words Ausbildung and Erziehung are not misstaken for oneanother in people's mind. The English word education meaning both, some confusion appears in discutions in the German speaking world. Same in French with the two vers éduquer and élever the children (School should educate children, not raise them). I am blaming it on the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, so please do not take it personnaly as English speakers.


Faltrad - thanks for this post. I'm starting to understand now it's about difference in mindset. "Family freedom versus state control". This also fits in well with discussions I've had with a very good friend of mine (who is Swiss - now living in Berlin) about the education system. I can understand this position well and also why this debate is such a heated one

st2lemans 05.06.2011 23:35

Re: Swiss women earn 41 percent less than men
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StephanieWD (Post 1219041)
Faltrad - thanks for this post. I'm starting to understand now it's about difference in mindset. "Family freedom versus state control". This also fits in well with discussions I've had with a very good friend of mine (who is Swiss - now living in Berlin) about the education system. I can understand this position well and also why this debate is such a heated one

A good way to view things.

After all, if there is universal child care, it has to be paid for, which means higher taxes.

Which in turns means that a lot of families that survive just fine with one income can no longer afford to do so, and need two incomes just to pay the additional taxes, so the 'choice' of working is no longer a 'choice'.

Tom


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